Reality

twyvel wrote:

That 'awareness' cannot be observed is not a guess.

Just about everything in your belief system is a guess -- except for the words "the" and "and." :wink: :wink:

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fresco wrote:

David Henry,

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1119

Please scan this and see if your points are covered.

No thanks.
Your refusal to answer a simple question means you've something to hide.

Here's my simple question again..."Am I justified in believing the earth has a physical past?"

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Of course YOU are justified in that belief. But what I am drawing attention to is the purposes such a belief may/may not serve. Once you ignore those purposes then all becomes competitive dogma ..e.g. creationism versus geology/evolution etc. To argue that "science" has superior explanatory adequacy is based on a few hundred years of material "success" with environmental manipulation, but such "success might be differently assessed in the long run.
(and I speak as an atheist and a science graduate).

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fresco wrote:

.e.g. creationism versus geology/evolution etc. To argue that "science" has superior explanatory adequacy is based on a few hundred years of material "success" with environmental manipulation, but such "success might be differently assessed in the long run.
(and I speak as an atheist and a science graduate).

No, you just speak arbitarily.
Your appeal to doubt is based on the assumption that this isn't the last paradigm.
What evidence do you cite that would lead a reasonable person to assume an imminent/potential P shift?
If you have no reasonable or compelling evidence, why would anyone align themselves with your doubts?

Science's success is based on that fact that its the KING OF THE PHYSICAL REALM....if it isn't, please elucidate as to what the superior method/discipline is?

Science cannot offer a God concept...as the typical basis for knowing God is intuition/revelation/faith...as such, science can expose flawed thinking/logic...but cannot attack God based epistemologies as it's apples vs banana's at the epistemic level.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Yeah...he claims it is just a game.

But what the hell does John McEnroe know! :wink:

About [email protected] FA...but he was a knowledgable elite sportsman.

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David Henry,

I refer you to Thomas Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" for an account of the social nature of continuous paradigm shifts and the social forces surrounding the acceptability of "evidence".

...and your "apples" and "bananas" merely depend on your view of epistemology...mine tends towards "generative epistemology" after Piaget, where "logical thought" is an outcome of maturation of cognition and hence cannot be evoked as an analytical tool in the explanation of cognition.

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Frank

Quote:

Just about everything in your belief system is a guess -- except for the words "the" and "and." :wink::wink:

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twyvel wrote:

Frank

Quote:
Just about everything in your belief system is a guess -- except for the words "the" and "and." :wink::wink:

Since there are so many things that "cannot be observed" on various levels -- perhaps you will favor us with the implications of this statement IF IT IS SO.

I am not at all convinced it is so -- but I do want to understand the implications of "awareness cannot be observed."

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fresco wrote:

I refer you to Thomas Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" for an account of the social nature of continuous paradigm shifts and the social forces surrounding the acceptability of "evidence".

All you're telling me is that paradigms exist....everyone on this forum knows that.
What we don't know is what is the superior method to science, and what YOU cite as evidence of an imminent/potential paradigm shift?

I know of what the beginnings of a shift looks like....but I want you to supply evidence that it's occuring NOW...I want you to do this so as to make your comments anything but platitudes or arbitary.

If YOU have no evidence of one on the cards, nor are you offering a superior method to know the physical world, then you're introducing doubt and telling me nothing.

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David Henry

The current paradigm shifts are (a) at the level of cosmology involving "dark materal" (b) at the level of quanta and multidimensionality and (c) at the level of cognition and perception with models such as "quantum consciousness", and "second order cybernetics". (see Google). All of these seriously question a narrow epistemological viewpoint and take account of the mutuality between observer and observed.

(I prefer to use terms like "narrow" and "wide". Your usage of "King" and "Superior" seem out of place in a philosophy forum. You have also assumed "progress" though not used it against which you presumably guage "arbitrariness". I have pointed out that philosophically, progress/success may be in the eye of the beholder )

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Frank

Quote:

Since there are so many things that "cannot be observed" on various levels -- perhaps you will favor us with the implications of this statement IF IT IS SO.

I am not at all convinced it is so -- but I do want to understand the implications of "awareness cannot be observed."

IF IT IS SO
implications

Bait set but not taken.

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Boy I'm glad this isn't one of those things that keeps me up at night. But let me leap into the fray! *grins*

I have this to ask:

If it isn't reality, is it non-reality? Is there another option besides those two?

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twyvel wrote:

Frank

Quote:
Since there are so many things that "cannot be observed" on various levels -- perhaps you will favor us with the implications of this statement IF IT IS SO.

I am not at all convinced it is so -- but I do want to understand the implications of "awareness cannot be observed."

IF IT IS SO

implications

Bait set but not taken.

I am confused. What bait?

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confusion <---- my reality

*L*

Just trying to inject a little levity in here.

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caprice wrote:

twyvel wrote:
Frank

Quote:
Since there are so many things that "cannot be observed" on various levels -- perhaps you will favor us with the implications of this statement IF IT IS SO.

I am not at all convinced it is so -- but I do want to understand the implications of "awareness cannot be observed."

IF IT IS SO

implications

Bait set but not taken.

I am confused. What bait?

Thanks for asking that!

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fresco wrote:

The current paradigm shifts are (a) at the level of cosmology involving "dark materal" (b) at the level of quanta and multidimensionality and (c) at the level of cognition and perception with models such as "quantum consciousness", and "second order cybernetics".

How are these subjects representative of a shift?
They seem like extensions of the existing order+ they have to prove useful.

Quote:

er to use terms like "narrow" and "wide". Your usage of "King" and "Superior" seem out of place in a philosophy forum.

One of the goals of philosophy is to convey ideas, my terms do just that....and you haven't effectively discredited them, although you've complained about them.

Quote:

also assumed "progress" though not used it against which you presumably guage "arbitrariness". I have pointed out that philosophically, progress/success may be in the eye of the beholder )

So what....science is still the investigation into the physical world, and presumably progress will entail "more" scientific knowledge.

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David Henry,

Sorry, I find this point by point fencing pretty boring. If you don't feel inclined to refer to the threads where these issues have already been discussed at length then I refer you to recent books by Capra and others who have been paid large sums by publishers to expand on the concept of recent paradigm shifts.

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That tomato in the kitchen looks pretty real to me. I think I'll take that realistic looking bread and make a sandwich with it.

Do you think my chances are good that the sandwich will be real and therefore the growlies in my stomach will go away after I eat it? I think I'll risk it.

Very Happy

Frank Apisa wrote:

Thanks for asking that!

No problem. Smile

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Reality

It doesn't get any more real...

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*eyes glaze over*

I don't know why physics does that to me. Smile

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