Miss USA delegates on evolution in schools

@Arella Mae,

The problem with some folks debating about their deeply held religious beliefs in fora like this one is with people who've strong faith but posessing thin skin about their beliefs. They'll always have lots of trouble engaging in a debate about certain issues like creationism vs evolution. There is no meaningful dialogue that can ensue when the matter involves these matters. One person is talking about scientific facts and theories and the other is talking about THEIR faith. That is fish and foul.

My suggestion is to not bother engaging in such threads. Believe what you want to believe and allow such debates to pass you by. Scroll on past.

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@Ragman,

Sage council, ragman. But, it won't be followed.

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@edgarblythe,

<sigh>

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@Ragman,

It is not about having a thin skin at all. I just don't understand why people have to get so flipping angry because I don't think the way they do!

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@Arella Mae,

I apologize, unreservedly, for anything I said that has caused you hurt, Arella Mae.

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@Arella Mae,

I support you and your right to express your opinion. However where things break down in the discussion is at the following: there are people here discussing fact and there are people here discussing faith, which makes the discussion at cross-purposes.

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

Why should "I" have to take my kids out of school because I disagree with you (generic) on what you think kids should be taught? Why don't you take "yours" out of school? When does it stop? I always hear how Christians force stuff down people's throats and quite honestly the only thing being forced is "I" don't agree with how "you" think so, of course, I am deluded!

I am sorry but I find it all so hypocritical. I am NOT saying this in specific regard to you. But seriously, I hear about how non-believers think Christians think they are so superior and hmmmmmmmmmmm, I don't call anyone deluded!

I am sorry. But this namecalling and anyone thinking they are better than anyone else because they think differently is PURE CRAP!

If a person cannot have a civil discussion without insulting then I don't want to be part of that discussion. If someone thinks I am deluded then they have already made up their mind about "me" and aren't going to listen to my side so why waste my time?

If people have so little respect for another human being they have to demean them in their conversation, seriously, THEY CAN KISS MY GRITS! I am tired of it.

No Arella Mae I am not here to insult anyone less alone to qualify their beliefs, but only contradictions in judgement...I did pose you a very valid question concerning coherence...What I told you, if I do remember it correctly, was that if it is the case that you don´t value scientific knowledge to be lectured to your kids why then should you take them to a place where scientific knowledge is valued ? Certainly Christian Communities could join together and create their own school system where none of the scientific knowledge would be "indoctrinating" and "alienating" your own children's cultural background...that I reckon would be the appropriate measure to take and to that I would not pose any criticism...could n´t be any more fair then this ! The thing is you go both ways and that is not honest.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

It is irrational to stare the scientific facts in the face and deny it. Or to form an opinion when you refuse to learn what it is you are denying.

I love this ceili.

This is exactly what I think when I hear people say things like "I didn't come from no monkey."

I think if you take a child (or willing to listen adult) and give them small enough bites of what the theory of evolution says, verifying after each new point learned that they truly understand what is being said, that they would not come to a point to any where they say "I don't believe that"

The problem is you get an person who has no clue as to what the theory really says, and just carte blanche denies it.

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@chai2,

Yeah...whoever all in all I think is fair to reckon that some religious folk are honestly thinking we are attacking their freedom of belief reason why we should be more careful in engaging them so bluntly in their miss assessment on what we are truly engaging them for...I am convinced that not all of them deserve the same form of treatment specially if we really are interested in changing their attitude towards scientific knowledge pursuit.

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@Arella Mae,

Leaving aside any issues of members demeaning one another, i would like to point out to you that we do not canvass people's opinions when constructing a history curriuculum--we rely upon people who are expert in the subject, and what can reasonably be alleged to be the majority expert opinion. We don't canvass people's opinions when constructing a chemistry curriculum, again, we rely upon majority expert opinion.

People don't accept a theory of evolution because it confirms their religious bias. They don't accpet a theory of evolution because it is the majority opinion of people on the street in their neighborhood. They accept a theory of evolution because it best explains the data, in the opinion of the majority of those scientists expert in the subjects which underpin the theory. We accept the theory of gravity because the majority opinion of scientists in physics considered expert accept it. This is standard practice.

So, with respect, if you disagree with evolution, take your child out of school. The school has the business of teaching reliable science, not people's opinions on what should be believed.

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@Ragman,

Ragman wrote:

I support you and your right to express your opinion. However where things break down in the discussion is at the following: there are people here discussing fact and there are people here discussing faith, which makes the discussion at cross-purposes.

Not really

There is someone discussing her beliefs and there are a whole lot of other people discussing what dangerous idiots people who don't accept evolution are.

If it's really a discussion of fact than we would have more people trying to explain why what appears to some to be flaws in the theory are not really flaws, instead of denouncing them as crazy for bringing them up.

Ultimately, you're right that a debate that relies heavily on faith is very unlikely to ever be resolved, but your advice for Arella is good advice for many others who have posted herein. If someone irritates you, either with with their unpleasentness of their ignorance, you can always refrain from responding and scroll on.

This thread didn't start as a discussion of scientific fact, it started as a parade of wisecracks about Miss USA delegates who expressed less than the acceptable degree of certainty about evolution.

This is perfectly fine though. No one has to participate in any of these threads and if they can't stand the heat generated they can always get out of the kitchen.

I do find it a bit disingenuous, though, to suggest that the heat was generated solely by Faith meeting up with Fact.

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

I don't think evolution is being taught in a lot of schools. Scary as that sounds.

I think a lot of schools and teachers simply passively avoid covering evolution as an important subject because they either don't agree with it themselves, or they don't want to poke the bee hive in their little town.

Remember, the only time we ever hear about a school that tries to teach creationism or hinders science education is when someone objects and it makes it into the news. And those are usually relatively large schools where the chance of someone objecting vocally is greater. I bet a majority of small town/schools are just passively going about their science classes skipping or downplaying evolution. They are invisible to us. The only effect we see is in interviews with beauty contestants.

So yeah..Was there actually a moon landing? I think so. But that means we were more advanced in the 1960s than we are today? There is problems with the creative ferment and I think that a lot of this is about pursuing humanist goals. Which may or may not be based on real science. I say Kudos though for this Miss USA. She isn't doing an apology tour. Man is an ongoing evolution. But so is UNESCO. Agenda 21 is the keyword. My chief of streets, says Erica Ford. And maybe we should just all play Dynamite Heady on our Cell phones and talk about the Essene Gospel. Evolution to me is now at its Rashōmon stage. Lack of funding and in general a lack of the public caring.

That is the part of what Rosborne said that I agree with. It's pitiful. We are supposed to believe that America and its education is based on more than superficial calculations.

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

Evolution is NOT A PROVEN fact. History is.

I don't think I ever picked up on this at the time - but 'history is a proven fact' is a very loaded statement. Whose interpretation of history? I feel history is very subjective.

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

Evolution is NOT A PROVEN fact. History is.

I don't think I ever picked up on this at the time - but 'history is a proven fact' is a very loaded statement. Whose interpretation of history? I feel history is very subjective.

1 Reply

@hingehead,

hingehead wrote:

but 'history is a proven fact' is a very loaded statement. Whose interpretation of history? I feel history is very subjective.

History is human history, made by people, researched by people and written down by people. You can endeavour to be objective, you even have to, but you will never achieve it, because people do not function according to mathematical or scientific rules, but only according to individual ideas, perceptions and, above all, emotions.

In short: historical facts depend on the observer.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter do brains taste good. I wouldn't know. I am a big fan of Danny White. A monument for a famous Communist leader is being built in Canada. Don't say kiss my grits on that, say it about Evolution. This isn't about Piltdown man anymore or Collusion with the DOJ which in my opinion is the same thing as Piltdown man.
Ewoks obviously. Whatever is apparent. Worshipping the City of God or worshipping the city of a God. I'll agree that evolution has some flaws. But if you want to say that God created everything, and knowing that Horses were once tiny about the size of a golden retriever, and the same with a bunch of animals. Ground Sloths were larger, but then again maybe evolution in that case makes sense for them to be smaller and live in trees. I say if you believe in evolution then hit back while you can before it all becomes Spyro the dragon. Extendagena. "Man is certainly crazy. He could not make a mite, but yet he makes gods by the dozen."

I am not into it, for these Go For It Expeditions. Name a whale moby. And don't apologize to me for wasting my time.

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Miss USA delegates on evolution in schools

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