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Miss USA delegates on evolution in schools

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 02:55 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
What if a parent believe that American History was wrong and they didn't want their child to learn any of it, would that be ok?


Americans being taught their actual history instead of the propaganda they get; that would be fantastic, Ros, a real step forward in education.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 03:00 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Not when the "experts" are basically brainwashed ideologues.


Consider how science works, Gunga, consider the safeguards that are in place. Now consider how GWB and his crew, your heroes, acted against science and the truth.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 03:03 pm
@raprap,
How long do you need to listen to that bullshit to get past the ad-hominems?
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 03:12 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I wonder if AM considers the concept of gravity to be an optional subject for education. After all, it's just a theory . . .

I think the problem that most people have with evolution as a theory versus other scientific theories is that evolution itself is not directly observable, so it doesn't pass the "gut feel" test that most people use to measure reality.

Instead, evolution is proven primarily by overwhelming corroborative deduction. But in order to realize (internalize) this type of proof you have to have access to the data (many people don't), be able to understand the connections (across multiple disciplines) and be able to pull the pieces together (even if you don't like what it's going to show you).
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 03:25 pm
It is my impression that most christians in the wide world, believers in Christ, are Catholic. (I'm capitalizing for a change of pace.) Catholics are fine with evolution, given that there is a First Cause, speaking Aquinus-ly.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 03:35 pm
@gungasnake,
Kinda a strange complaint from someone who posts Ann Coulter's latest article on evolution/evolosers:
and consider's her a credible source on evolution.

But what do I know--I'm only a 'evoloser'.

Rap
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 03:38 pm
@raprap,
As I noted, you should consider moving up from evoloserism to Rastafari. Big step upwards in class...


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSBxg85MbREzgmgu6AHQf3L8OodBS7Xy97zDVvN9Bu2ldAWV3Kf
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 03:39 pm
@raprap,
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQE05NwMJ4TCv5VWdZjjsBix_WsUkop6gDIM1pqUQe-2RELQhE2Cg
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 04:32 am
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
Evolution, to most Christians, is contrary to their beliefs.
Most all science is AM, that soesnt make Christianity a "truth", when a belief counters evidence and you choose to continue to go with the "belief" dont blame science when your kid doesnt get accepted to a decent college to study medicine. Even the great Catholic and Protestand Universities and even Brigham Young, teach the FACT of evolution. Theyve managed to accomodate facts and evidence with their religions. Only the Evangelical and Fundamental Christian Religions have any problems with evolution. DEAL WITH IT evolution IS A FACT, youre just too stubbornly parochial to accept it. thweories and laws in science dont wait for the "approva;" of the uninformed, it moves on to greater things. .

Quote:
I doubt many of you would want creationism taught to your child? Isn't that something that should be your choice?
None less than the US SUpreme Court has made that decision when it comes to what is taught as SCIENCE in a public school. Its not "your choice" If you want your kid to learn Voodoo science please contact Gungasneak, Im sure he has plenty of voodoo and snake handler parochial schools that will teach you anything you want to hear as science.

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 04:37 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Correct. And when it has, it has yielded one total disproof after another, including things like the Haldane dilemma which indicate that quadrillions of years would be needed for evolution to produce anything like our living world even if that were possible which it isn't, and the kinds of probabilistic statements which Fred Hoyle has made.
This is gungas belief that he can relive a statement that is over 70 years old and was readressed by the author back when he posted it. Use of math in evolution IS unbrokenly supportive of the modes and means of the process. Gungas just living in the 19th century hoping that something will stick

Fred Hoyles credentials in evolutionary theory were no better than Ann Coulters.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 05:17 am
@farmerman,
Gungas information, such as his quaint semiannual reprise of Ramines "Haldanes dilemma" has been rejoined in "honorable correction" to gunga at least 10 times over the past 6 pr so years. Im really surprised that our snakey hasnt come up with anything new. COULD IT BE that there isnt anything new under the sun for Creationists to dig into? I never saved it but we used to have a real research geneticist herein who took gungas repeat of Haldane (via RAmine) to good task , yet gunga, tru to his ignornt form, never seems to learn and merely reposts the same detritus every six months or so.
Its neat that new material on the subject gets posted cause apparently the Creationists are till trying to foist their fantasy world onto real science.
Next gunga will trot out miss qupoted quotes from many of the classical wprkers in evolution, genetics, and paleontology.
Then he will trot out equally old crap about punctuated equilibrium, and then some crap about IKA stones and how dinosaurs are still living (but are apparently really good at hiding from helicopters0
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 05:32 am
Don't forget the rock paintings in Michigan . . . they're right up there with the Ika stones.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 05:44 am
@farmerman,
JTT, The Butler ACt was passed in 1922 just to forbid the teaching of evolution in Tenn. The SCopes trial was an agree upon "Test" of this act and was by total legal agreement. The fact that Scopes was only fined less than the minimum (he was fined 100$ which was reduced to 1$ after an appeal), after a state SUpreme Court decision, BUTLER was actually SOLIDIFIED for over 35more years. It wasnt until 1967
When Gary SCott,(A REAL BIOLOGY TEACHER), was dismissed for teaching evolution (remember that evolution WAS NOT taught in Tenn public schools for the entire interim period) The dismissed teacher sued for violation of his civil rights under Amendment 1 and free speech. and WON and was restated, He continued his fight against Butler and THAT WAS THE REAL KILLER for farmer Butler's ACT.
There should actually be a HISTORY CHANNEL (or similar)followup on SCopes/SCOTT to let everyone understand that SCopes not only .lost the case, he lost the cause for an additional 35 years, and it was GARY SCOTT who was the real hero for science.

Heres a blurb I got from Wiki on the Butler act after Scopes


BUTLER ACT (from Wikipedia)



The Butler Act was a 1925 Tennessee law prohibiting public school teachers from denying the Biblical account of man’s origin. It was enacted as Tennessee Code Annotated Title 49 (Education) Section 1922 . The law also prevented the teaching of the evolution of man from what it referred to as lower orders of animals in place of the Biblical account.

Provisions of the law
The law, "AN ACT prohibiting the teaching of the Evolution Theory in all the Universities, and all other public schools of Tennessee, which are supported in whole or in part by the public school funds of the State, and to provide penalties for the violations thereof" (Tenn. HB 185, 1925) specifically provided:

"That it shall be unlawful for any teacher in any of the Universities, Normals and all other public schools of the State which are supported in whole or in part by the public school funds of the State, to teach any theory that denies the Story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible, and to teach instead that man has descended from a lower order of animals."[1]
It additionally outlined that an offending teacher would be guilty of a misdemeanor and fined between $100 and $500 for each offense.

By the terms of the statute, it could be argued, it was not illegal to teach that apes descended from protozoa, to teach the mechanisms of variation and natural selection, or to teach the prevailing scientific theories of geology or the age of the Earth. It did not even require that the Genesis story be taught. It prohibited only the teaching that man evolved, or any other theory denying that man was created by God as recorded in Genesis. However the author of the law, a Tennessee farmer named John Washington Butler, specifically intended that it would prohibit the teaching of evolution. He later was reported to have said, "No, I didn't know anything about evolution when I introduced it. I'd read in the papers that boys and girls were coming home from school and telling their fathers and mothers that the Bible was all nonsense." After reading copies of William Jennings Bryan's lecture "Is the Bible True?" as well as Charles Darwin's The Origin of Species and The Descent of Man, Butler decided evolution was dangerous.

[edit] Challenges
The law was challenged by the ACLU in the famed Scopes Trial, in which John Scopes, a high school sports coach who occasionally acted as a substitute teacher, agreed to be arrested on a charge of having taught evolution, and was nominally served a warrant on May 5, 1925. Scopes was indicted on May 25 and ultimately convicted; on appeal the Tennessee Supreme Court found the law to be constitutional under the Tennessee State Constitution, because:

We are not able to see how the prohibition of teaching the theory that man has descended from a lower order of animals gives preference to any religious establishment or mode of worship. So far as we know, there is no religious establishment or organized body that has in its creed or confession of faith any article denying or affirming such a theory. — Scopes v. State 289 S.W. 363, 367 (Tenn. 1927)

Despite this decision, the Tennessee Supreme Court reversed the conviction on a technicality (that the jury should have fixed the amount of the fine), and the case was not retried. During the trial, Butler told reporters: "I never had any idea my bill would make a fuss. I just thought it would become a law, and that everybody would abide by it and that we wouldn't hear any more of evolution in Tennessee."

The law remained on the books until 1967, when teacher Gary L. Scott of Jacksboro TN, dismissed for violation of the act, sued for reinstatement, citing his First Amendment right to free speech. Although his termination was rescinded, Scott continued his fight with a class action lawsuit in the Nashville Federal District Court, seeking a permanent injunction against enforcement of that law. Within three days of his filing suit, a bill for repeal of the Butler Act had passed both houses of the Tennessee legislature, signed into law May 18 by Governor Buford Ellington.[2]

pes

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 09:05 am
@Arella Mae,
Germ theory is still just a theory just as evolution is a theory.

Yet you KNOW when it comes to one theory?

That seems a bit odd, don't you think Arella Mae?

Gravity is still just a theory as well.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 10:31 am
AsI said, it is MERELY my opinion that some things should be left up to the parents as to whether they want their child taught that or not. I don't have anything else to about the issue.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 10:49 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

AsI said, it is MERELY my opinion that some things should be left up to the parents as to whether they want their child taught that or not. I don't have anything else to about the issue.

I accept that opinion as being true and honest. And people have a right to their opinions.

But I'm still curious how broadly you apply that opinion. Do you use the same logic for all subjects, or do you only apply it to evolution and sex education, and if so, how do you decide which things you treat as special?
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 10:53 am
@Arella Mae,
The state has a role in making sure that it's citizens are educated.

Unless you prefer all children be left to being educated by their parents.
Arella Mae
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 01:07 pm
@rosborne979,
Those are the only two that I can think of. I'm a Christian. I believe in creationism. Evolution conflicts with my beliefs. I don't have kids so no one has to worry that I'm depriving any child of anything.
Arella Mae
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 01:08 pm
@parados,
Lots of kids are home-schooled.
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 01:17 pm
@Arella Mae,
How many of them get scholarships to MIT or Stanford?
 

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