Palestinian Solidarity Campaign disrupts Israeli Concert. Yeah!!!

It is a foolish ipse dixit on your part to say that wisdom consists in acquiescing in the oppression and murder--you don't even offer the fig leaf of an alleged logical reason. I have neither obstinately nor otherwise called for the dissolution of Israel, and i would certainly applaud the abandonment of the Nazi-like policies foisted on the Israeli state by the Zionists. It is not axiomatic that the Israeli nation need be a Zionist state.

When dealing with posts that you do not care for, your modus operandi reminds me of that which got people to avoid certain neighborhoods in NYC in the late 19th century. However, you are literate.

I neither vote for nor against posts, and your bigoted remarks about neighborhoods in New York are not relevant.

That is the nut of the argument. The world needs a Zionist State so decent people do not have to ever emotionally deal with another Holocaust.

I think we do not agree that within the Gentile collective unconscious there is a dormant dislike of differentness of people, that historically reacted at times violently against Jews.

So, to be concise, Israel does exist as a Zionist State. And, there are enough people in the world that subscribe to my thinking, since Israel has enough weapons systems to protect itself. But, if you think you know better, it is good that you have confidence in your opinion.

They are not bigoted. You do know there was a book and movie, The Gangs of New York. You do know that the Five Points was nowhere for genteel society to frequent. The United Nations was once a slum; so was the Lincoln Center area. The land that Central Park is on was once inhabited by squatters after the Civil War. These folks maintained a very territorial attitude to their supposed turf.

May I remind you of what you said earlier.



I told you I know of at least three instances of people changing their attitude. The most intelligent negotiators have got nowhere, because nobody is prepared to put pressure on Israel. It is as simple as that. The Israeli position is to pretend to negotiate, whilst creating facts on the ground, and the West has let them get away with it.

Turkey's president is visiting Egypt tomorrow, Israel is losing allies hand over fist.

Bullshit.

Decent people don't include Zionists who rob and murder Palestinians. Israel will never be a "decent" nation so long as it continues to rob, oppress and murder Palestinians.

Actually, there is good historical evidence to support your claim. In 1953, MI6 backed by Central Intelligence, overthrew the constitutional government of Iran. Eisenhower, newly inaugurated President, felt that he had been blind-sided, that he had been duped. So, in 1956, when the Anglo-French force seized that Suez Canal, and the giddy Zionists roared around the Sinai in the English armored vehicles, Eisenhower told them in no uncertain terms that they could withdraw from the Sinai, or never see another penny of American foreign aid. The Congress can vote all the aid it wants, but the President disburses the funds, and he can choke off any nation. The Israelis ran back home as fast as their transport would carry them.

In 1978, Jimmy Carter worked tirelessly to broker a deal for the middle east. King Hussein and Hafaz al-Asad would not join negotiations, but Carter had already discussed a peace deal with all the leaders, including Anwar Sadat and Yitzakh Rabin. Sadat wanted to shed the Soviet connection, which had not proven useful to Egypt, and which was now tainted by their support of the communist government in Afghanistan (and would be further tainted by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan a few months later). Carter assured him that he could establish a beneficial relationship with the United States, and continued his tireless brokering of a deal, now with Menachem Begin, who had succeeded Rabin. Eventually, after two weeks of negotiations at Camp David, Carter succeeded in getting Sadat and Begin not simply to agree, but to sign a comprehensive agreement.

Whether it was Eisenhower's stick or Carter's carrot, those event show that Israel can be managed. The main reason negotiations so commonly fail, is that American Presidents don't seem to care that Israel's governments negotiate in bad faith, and their experience is that they don't have to negotiate in good faith. The west has taught Israel that it can get away with playing these games.

A simpleton wrote in support of your "pressure conjecture"...



...which ultimately resulted in the assassination of Sadat.
...and hadn't Rabin suffered the same fate for proposing to trade land for peace ?

I did not at any time say that there are not lunatic fanatics in the mix, and in fact, i've been complaining about the Zionist fanatics all along. I certainly did not say that those two events solved all of the problems. What a dullard you are. Is this as good as it gets when it comes to rhetoric among "philosophers."

No...you agreed with izzy's suggestion that pressure produced "results". You merely failed to evaluate those results. I've given you a little bit of help in that direction that's all.

Let's pretend, just for the sake of discussion, let's pretend that your post represented a cogent observation. Do you allege that the lives of those two men were worth more than 30 years of peace between Egypt and Israel? I thought i'd give you a little bit of help in evaluating the results.

Clown.

If I read you right you're saying that we should give in to the fanatics, sit on our hands, let Israel continue creating facts on the ground, and keep our fingers crossed that this doesn't turn into a regular full blown jihad.

I referred to Fresco as a clown, because his comments have been shallow, and show no signs of thought before posting. It appears to me that he has only come here to take pot shots--cheap shots at you, and at me. He's contributed nothing to the discussion.

The crux of my argument is that assuming Israelis have a few brains they will of course try to consolidate their position "on the ground" since negotiations are futile against a party unwilling to recognize their very existence. It may be straight Machivellian logic, but it is logical from their point of view. Now this argument has nothing to do with "justice", but when has such a concept figured highly in the realm of realpolitik ? (Note my earlier oblique comparison to the plight of "native Americans" which someone thumbed down).

So whether pundits like it or not, "empathy with the dispossessed", noble as such a sentiment may be is not going to have a significant effect on the situation. Nor is historical analysis particularly helpful since each side has its own perception of events.

No doubt you will evaluate Setanta's "cheap shot" argument for yourself.

So we should just sit on our hands and keep our fingers crossed, and hope that when the western backed police state, that is Saudi Arabia, falls they won't sell all their oil to China?

No. ("Jaw Jaw is better than War War" )But perhaps we should concentrate our attention to the practicalities of removing our dependence on Middle Eastern oil, rather than letting such a vested interest unduly influence our foreign policy...for that, rather than "empathy" is the "reality" of the matter.

Jaw Jaw means putting pressure on Israel to talk to Hamas. The only precondition should be an immediate ceasefire. All this talk of Hamas' stance on Israel's right to exist is just a smokescreen. A five year ceasefire would be a good start.

It is easy to forget in all of this that, while Israel's culpability in announcing to the world in 1967 that it would forever control the external boundaries of the West Bank territory, and then embarking on a continuing series of planned (and some unplanned) settlements there, is undeniable, the possibility of an amicable settlement with all of its Arab neighbors has not been a continuous certainty to say the least. Certainly until the succession of Nasser by Anwer Sadat and the latter's disenchantment with the Soviet presence, peace with Egypt was not a possibility. That's why the Carter-brokered agreements were such a breakthrough. The problem of peace with Syria is more problematic, as is its relationship (and that of Hamas in Gaza) with Iran. It is easy for any of us (myself included) to assert that long term peace is possible only through direct engagement between Israel and its Palestinian neighbors (and in many cases subjects). However, there are some very real risks and impediments in the process that are not within Israel's control.

I believe this is an element of the problem that many of Israel's critics here and in Europe have chosen to ignore. As Izzie can probably guess, it is also an area in which I believe most Europeans, in view of their own histories in the region and of the horrors inflicted on European Jews during and immediately after WWII, should keep a shamed silence.

As others have noted, Israel has fairly steadily and excessively used Arab intransigence as a standing excuse for rationalizing its theology of of uniqueness & apartness, and for ignoring the intolerance and greed of its most zealous inhabitants in expropriating the land and property of West Bank Palestinians. Evil begets evil.

Now with the hope and uncertainty of the Arab Spring, and the possibility of some changes in the Syrian government, there is the possibility that new, more permissive conditions may emerge. I believe that western countries should begin to treat these as clearly connected issues, communicating to the Arab neighbors the obvious fact that the creation of liberal democratic governments able to foster tolerance, is a necessary precondition for the regional peace and settlement we all hope for.

Once again, an injustice done to one does not legitimize injustice done to another. Sneering about how aboriginal Americans were treated does not alter that the sins of Europe before and during the Second World War do not justify the injustices done by Zionists in Palestine. Prating in a shallow manner about realpolitik doesn't alter that the situation will only be resolved when a significant approach is made to justice for the Palestinians.