Palestinian Solidarity Campaign disrupts Israeli Concert. Yeah!!!

@izzythepush,

Two letters from yesterday's Guardian. Gerald Kaufman is a prominant Jewish Labour mp who lost family members during the holocaust.

Quote:

As someone who is Jewish, I was proud to take part in the protests at the Royal Albert Hall against the Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra. Those who proclaim that politics and culture don't mix, when they keep silent as the Freedom Theatre in Jenin is under constant attack by the Israeli military, its premises ransacked and two workers detained without trial, are a prime example of western hypocrisy. Culture, art and sport cannot be divorced from their social context. When I took part in demonstrations in 1970 against the Springbok rugby tour, this same argument was used. The BBC's attitude to broadcasting the all-white South African cricket team then was exactly the same as it is today towards Israel's cultural ambassadors. However, the Guardian and Daily Telegraph's cricket correspondents, John Arlott and Jim Swanton, took a principled stance, refusing to commentate for the BBC. The reason why Israel funds and subsidises artists, musicians and writers to travel abroad is stated in the contract that they sign. The artist agrees they will "promote the policy interests of the State of Israel via culture and art". Who would now say that it would have been wrong to mix politics and culture and disrupt the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and the performances of their famous conductor, Wilhelm Furtwangler, when they toured in the 1930s?
Tony Greenstein
Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods

• Demonstrators, protesting against the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians, disrupt the Israel Philharmonic's Prom. Reminds me of when demonstrators, protesting against the Soviet government's treatment of Jews, disrupted the Bolshoi Ballet in 1974. Shakespeare, Twelfth Night: "Thus the whirligig of time brings in his revenges."
Gerald Kaufman MP
Labour, Manchester Gorton

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There will always be Jews that argue against the State of Israel, then again, there's also that strange group wandering around with the insane name of Jews For Jesus. While I do believe at times that Israel has gone farther than they should have, I feel the same can and must be said of the opposing forces.

Israel exists for a reason, that must not be forgotten. Stop and think, realize and know, what led to the creation of the State of Israel and why it is just as important today as it was years ago.

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@Sturgis,

The state of Israel will always struggle with legitimacy whilst it continues to oppress the Palestinians.

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What lead to the creation of Israel was Zionist activism, begun well before the world had ever heard of Hitler, long before the NSDAP existed. I posted that map for a reason, but either it has shot right over the head of the people in this thread who are invidiously comparing opposition to the policies of the governments of Israel with anti-semitism, or they're too stupid to see the implications of the map.

The Jewish Virtual Library used to have a much more detailed version of the map submitted to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919. I suspect they changed that because it got too embarrassing to continually see the map linked online. The more detailed map shows exactly what the Zionists wanted (and what Israeli governments have largely attempted to get). It embraces all of the railroads which existed in Palestine at the time, all of the highways, all of the port facilities (which is why the Zionist map dips down into what is now Saudi Arabia). The strips of land in the Sinai and Jordan represent the naturally occuring arable land in those two nations (the Sinai having been a part of Egypt at least arguably since the 13th century). It also embraces the entire watershed of the Jordan River (which is why it embraces the Golan Heights), and it embraces the southern quarter of the Lebanon, particularly the valley of the Litani River.

The Zionists wanted all the built-up infrastructure, they wanted all the arable land in Palestine, and they wanted huge chunks of the Lebanon and Syria so that they could control the two largest watersheds in and near Palestine. It had nothing to do with the tragic events of 1933--1945. It had everything to do with greedy arrogance, and a vicious contempt for the occupants of Palestine at the beginning of the 20th century. Various governments of Israel have attempted to take, or have actually taken the land shown on that map. Zionists crying crocodile tears for the victims of the Nazi holocaust makes me particularly ill because they weren't in Germany from 1933 to 1945, they were in Palestine, their plan was in place before that event was ever dreamed of, and they were busily working (with British collusion) to arm themselves and disarm the Arabs in Palestine.

To oppose and speak out against the militaristic, imperialistic land-grabbing and ethnic cleansing methods of the Israeli governments since 1947 is not anti-semitism. It is not axiomatic that all Jews are Zionists, nor that that all Israelis who happen to be Jewish automatically approve of the policies and actions of the successive Israeli governments since 1947.

It sure is convenient, though, for the feeble Zionist fig leaves to call any critic a Jew hater. Saves the shithooks the trouble of actually attempting to defend the indefensible.

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@Setanta,

In Ost und West, Heft 1 (Januar 1901) ('East and West', № 1 [January 1901]), Alfred Nossing wrote about the "soon forthcoming mass immigartion to Palestine". (pages 19 - 26; Nossing: Die Zukunft des Judentums [The fure of Jewry]

In that very same issue, on pages 49 - 54, B. Ebenstein wrote about "Egypt-Palestine" ("Ein vergessenes Stück Palästina" [a forgooten part of Palestine].

'Ost und West' was an illustrated monthly magazine, published between 1901 and 1923, in the context of 'Jewish Renaissance'.

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Oh hell, while we're debating redrawing and redistricting of places, let's get out our old maps of Poland.

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@Sturgis,

Or we could just suggest that Israel abandons the illegal settlements on occupied territories and let the Palestinians get on with their own lives.

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The SD slaughtered Roma, let's invade the Balkans, run off the Serbs and carve out a homeland for the Roma. God knows, tens of millions of Amerindians died, let's send Foofie back to Europe and turn Manhattan over to them. Upon what basis do Jews deserve a homeland, and nobody else?

I don't know anyone here who is advocating that the Israelis be driven from their nation. What people of good conscience want to see it justice for the non-Jewish Palestinians.

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@izzythepush,

A Hamas and PLO Hater would be more accurate.

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@izzythepush,

The Blockade is "illegal," the settlements are "illegal," Israel is "illegal."

Are they "illegal" by Israeli law?

Is there a nation in the world that is judged (and misjudged) by international law than Israel?

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The United Nations considers the blockade to be legal, which does not mean that boarding a ship at sea with commandos from a helicopter was either legal or wise.

The West Bank and the Golan Heights are occupied territories, which Israel acknowledges, and it is therefore a violation of the Fourth Geneva convention to build settlements in those territories. The consensus view of the international community and the UN is that the settlements are illegal. As those territoies are not a part of Israel, Israeli courts have been able to dodge the issure of their legality. Whether or not the various governments of Israel have considered them legal has depended upon to whom they are speaking and what they hope to get out of it. The IDF has used force to remove settlers from settlements in territoies which the Israeli government has acknowledged by international negotiation, principly with the United States, should not have been settled.

I know of no one here who has alleged that Israel is illegal (typical conservative hysteria there). United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (already linked in this thread) authorized the partition of Palesttine in 1947. What is illegal is the violation by Israel of the terms of that resolution, or its failure to implement its responsibilities under that resolution.

But it's so much easier to set up a row of straw men and then knock them down. One can imagine oneself a rhetoical hero without actually having done very much thinking.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

The Blockade is "illegal," the settlements are "illegal," Israel is "illegal."

Are they "illegal" by Israeli law?

Is there a nation in the world that is judged (and misjudged) by international law than Israel?

I agree that much of what is touted as "InternationaL Law" either isn't law at all, even in principle, or fails to meet the practical test for international law: namely that it is a provision that affected sovereign nations accept and will act to enforce.

All that said, the fact that Israel has continued to exercise defacto control of about 75% of the former West Bank territory of Jordan since 1967, and has as yet granted no political rights to its Palestinian inhabitants, - all while establishing numerous settlements occupied by hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers who do have political rights the original inhaitants still lack, and connecting those settlements with limited-access roads, thereby isolating the original inhabitants - opens the door to breeches of many aspects of law and international tre aties which Israel has signed. Setanta has already noted the illegality of settlements of occupied territiry. There are likely more.

I believe the long occupation has also constituted a breech of the International Convention of human rights. Violations of this convention are, of course commonplace in the world, particularly among some of Israel's most vocal opponents. However, in this case I believe the breech is - morally at least - enough to give the lie to Israel's claimed right to continue indefinitely as a tribal or religious state dedicated exclusively to the welfare of one group. This self chosen imperative has led it to these crimes which are inseperable from its self chosen identity.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

A Hamas and PLO Hater would be more accurate.

That's a lot of people to be hating, you must be worn out.

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It's also interesting given that Fatah is the political wing of the PLO within Israel, so, essentially, he admits to hating all Palestinians. Which is even more bemusing given that for 18 years, Israel has recognized the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Quote:
Let's keep this thread about Israel, Foofie and the Palestineans. Please wait for St. Patrick's Day to wax nostalgic about Irish history.

Leaving aside the fact that I started this thread, and I didn't make it about Foofie, Ireland is very relevant. The hatred between Catholics and Protestants goes back centuries. Even with the peace process and power sharing they've had to build wall between the two communities in some places. Despite all this, things are significantly better now than they were before.

Israel/Palestine does not go back nearly so far, but the hatred's the same. Things will never improve until the two sides sit down together and both sides make concessions.

Well, comparing the Irish and the Israelis has one other common denominator, if I am correct. The Irish (aka, Celts) were pushed into Hibernia from continental Europe by the Romans, and the Israelis were pushed out of Israel by the Romans in 60 AD, or so.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Foofie wrote:

Let's keep this thread about Israel, Foofie and the Palestineans. Please wait for St. Patrick's Day to wax nostalgic about Irish history. I'll even then do my rendition of Old Danny Boy, a la Dennis Day on the Jack Benny Show.

Well, it's already about many more things than just that, including the historically forgetful self-righteousne of many Europeans - as illistrated by Izzie, and the remarkable rights you have claimed for Jews everywhere.

I believe the analogy with the still evolving situation in Northern Ireland is very apt and instructive for everyone here. One of the key factors leading to the breakdown of the former oppressive impasse in Northern Ireland was the decision of the British to end their former unquestioning support for the intolerant demands of their Unionists clients. In earlier years industrial Northern Ireland was an important economic and political adjunct to British economic and political power, By 1980 that had long ceased to be the case, and in those circumstances Britain finalkly chose to do the right thing. To some extent there is an analogy here with the role of the United Stated with respect to Israel. We can see that unfolding today.

I see the analogy being that the Protestant Northern Irish are the Israelis, and the Catholic Irish in Northern Ireland are the Palestineans.

However, the Israelis would never throw tomatoes at the Pope. Maybe the analogy is not so accurate?

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Foofie

Clearly I sympathize with your position on Israel, but if you keep generalizing in a negative way about Gentiles, we will have to part ways.

Jews undoubtedly have a history of being oppressed, but to suggest that all Gentiles have, to one degree or another, a measure of anti-Semticism is simply wrongheaded.

My definition of anti-Semitic is that one (aka, non-Jew; aka, Gentile) believes that Jews are inherently different. Meaning they just think, react, have a different world-view, because they are Jews/Jewish. Now, let's be honest, even when non-Jews are not hostile to me, they usually have some reaction that gives away the feeling that they often think that Jews are inherently different. Perhaps, it is just amusement, as though I am some sort of novelty (like a bagel with cream cheese).

Or, sometimes it is a positive prejudice, in that they think I am more intelligent than I am.

Either way, once my Jewishness is noted, I am just not another person, but an archetype.

Only in the military was I treated like others mostly, and that was because, in my opinion, my fellow enlisted knew we were all in the same boat, and I could not be "different" even if I was back in civilian life.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

ossobuco wrote:
I didn't know before this thread about Foofie's seeming total paranoia.

It seems to be based on his disdain and hatred for the world which in turn is based on his superiority delusions.

Paranoia does correlate to delusions of grandeur, since one believes one is important enough to be a target of others.

But, the problem with just writing me off as a paranoid Jew is just not doing one's homework. The fact is that the average Jewish child from the 1950's (aka, Foofie) had an average IQ equal to the average IQ of upper class WASPs. The difference was that the upper class WASPs were able to cloister themselves (and their children) in "exclusive" suburbs, and schools. Now the Jewish child with equal intelligence had to live in an urban setting usually, dealing with the oftentimes hostile and resentful urban ethnics that devalued the Jews, based on the feeling that the average Jew wasn't as athletic, tough, too intellectual, etc., etc. Not to mention the feelings that Jews in the Catholic theology weren't going to Heaven, and did kill Christ.

So, only in the military did I have a reprieve from the urban hooligans I knew back home. Meeting white Protestants from middle-class backgrounds that accepted being Jewish as just another religion, rather than some medieval Fagin, was vindicating in my alienation from the non-Jews back in the urban setting. Actually, I even met nice Catholics from urban settings in the military. Perhaps, NYC was/is just an ethnic hotbed of ethnic adversalrialness?

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

The state of Israel will always struggle with legitimacy whilst it continues to oppress the Palestinians.

What the hell does the word "whilst" mean? I think I know, but are you talking like Henry Higgins?

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

It sure is convenient, though, for the feeble Zionist fig leaves to call any critic a Jew hater. Saves the shithooks the trouble of actually attempting to defend the indefensible.

The rhetoric on this thread by some talk as though Israel is folding up its tent and going into the Sinai? Israel is a sovereign nation, with a military that already proved a number of times that Arab armies cannot defeat it. This time the Arabs hope to do it diplomatically, I believe.

But, you go ahead and tell the Israelis what they should do, since it is just so typical of the Goyisha kopf to believe that Jews need/deserve Gentile guidance. Remember, Jews must wander the Earth for all time, based on Catholic theology.

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Palestinian Solidarity Campaign disrupts Israeli Concert. Yeah!!!

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