Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 11:45 am
I need a crash course about the Russian Orthodox Church. I am reading all I can from the internet but I would really like to hear from someone that knows what the basic beliefs of this church are. From what I read it seems a lot like the Catholic Church but I don't want to assume that.

Are any of you Russian or Eastern Orthodox? Can you school me a bit?
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 01:11 pm
@Arella Mae,
Without claiming any expertise, i can tell you that it is no more like the Catholic Church than is any other branch of the Orthodox Church. In the 17th century, there was a crisis in the Russian church which was brought on by attempts to reform the church. To resolve the issues, the Russian Patriarch called on the Partiarch at Constantinople to appoint scholars to review the reformation of the Russian liturgy. Metropolitans (church officers) from the Greek church in Constantinople and in Greece and from the Syriac church in Damascus and Jerusalem either attended or sent representatives, and those representatives came to the conclusion that their liturgy should be modeled on the Greek liturgy, rather than their own ancient liturgy. Orthodox scholars from Kiev came to the same conclusion.

This lead to the great schism in the Russian Church, which divided it into Old Believers and "New Believers." (Except that nobody call the new believers new beleivers except the Old Believers; everybody called the Old Believers the Old Believers, including the Old Believers.) Thousands, perhaps millions of Old Believers took to the hills, either fleeing into the forests of the north, or the relative freedom of the Ukranian steppes. This all took place before Peter, who would be called Peter the Great, become Tsar. When he did become Tsar, he had the Old Believers in the northern forests rounded up. He didn't care what they believed, but he did care that they were evading imperial ukases--laws based on the Tsar's autocratic power--which required them to provide labor service. Some of the communities barricaded themselves in their churches, and burned themselves up rather than submit to the "New Believers", like David Koresh and his idiot followers down in Texas--which was nonsense, of course, because the soldiers didn't care what they believed. When the priests of the Old Believers began to get old and die in the early 18th century, they asked the established Russian Orthodox church to educate their young men for the priesthood, which was agreed, so they were reconciled to that extent. I don't know if you recall the member Nimh, but he once told me that he had met Old Believers in the Ukraine, so they're alive and well.

Peter's father fought with Nikon over the control of the church, and as one could expect with a Tsar, he won. His son Peter made the church a bureaucratic organ of the empire, paying for the churches, monasteries and nunneries, and paying the members of the church a salary. The Bolshevik revolution did not so much actively destroy the church (they mostly ignored it, except for those church members who actively rebelled against their rule and joined the White Russians), as they simply jerked the rug out from under them. With no salaries being paid, and nobody paying for the maintenance of chuches and monasteries, they quickly fell into disrepair. Many of the monateries were later taken over for collective farms.

Once again, there is, or there should be, no real difference between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Greek Orothodox Church, nor the Orthodox Maronites and the Orthodox Syriacs. To learn about the schism in the Russian church, you could do a web search for Nikita Minin, who became the Patriarch Nikon. You'll probably find it easiest to search for "Patriarch Nikon."
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 01:22 pm
@Setanta,
Is there anything about history you don't know? Wow! That helps me a lot. I guess what I was thinking was like Catholicism is the rituals, robes, chants, and icons that the Russian Orthodox Church has. I don't know all that much about Catholicism so I hesitate to say even that much.

Okay, now, what is your take on Russia's Vladimir Putin? Good guy or bad guy? I'm finding lots of opinions both wasy.

I'm crash coursing because a friend and I are going to be discussing this tonight. They know I am pretty clueless on it but I don't want to be totally clueless.

I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 01:35 pm
@Arella Mae,
Putin's father was a member of the NKVD, the predecessor of the KGB. Putin himself was a KGB member. As President, he did a lot to reform Russia, but he accomplished a lot of it by gross violations of human rights, by basically telling his people to like or lump it, and by getting in bed with people who were, essentially, crooks. At the same time, anyone who threatened his power, including the crooks, was likely to wake up dead some morning. He has been very effective, and i trust him about as far as i can spit on a hot day with a dry mouth.

What the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church have in common is the early christian church. They separated basically over the the issue of how to calculate the date of Easter. Other differences probably could have been reconciled, but neither side would budge on that one. Since the schism (the earliest and greatest schism in the church until the Protestant Reformation), the Pope has become a much more powerful and influential figure, but that is not necessarily a problem for Orthodox believers. Some Maronites believe the Pope is supreme and are called Maronite Catholics; some believe the Orthodox Patiarch is supreme, and are called Orthodox Maronites. The same is true for the Syriacs and Nestorians. The Maronites, Syriacs and Nestorians survive in small numbers, chiefly in the Lebanon, with very small communities in Syria and Turkey. The Nestorians poured across central Asia and reached China in the early days of the church, but not that many survive in these days in those regions.

Anything you learn about the Orthodox Church in general will apply to the Russian Orthodox Church, except for the Old Believers, who are neither numerous nor important. For both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, their ritual commemorates the actions of Jesus in what is called "Passion Week," and the mass and the liturgies celebrate what the testaments say he said and believed. Modern Protestant christians may not agree, but so what? Catholics and Orthodox christians certainly outnumber charismatic and evangelical Protestants. The only strife i know of among Catholics and Orthodox is between the Croatians (Catholics) and the Serbs (Orthodox), but then, they don't get along with anybody.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 01:39 pm
@Setanta,
I had seen something, can't remember if it was a documentary or what about Putin and the fact that he was probably responsible for some murders. I was really leaning to he's a bad guy trying to look like a nice guy and I think you confirmed that.

Again, thank you so much for your help!
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 01:47 pm
@Arella Mae,
Yeah, I forget how official it is but he's been behind murders of journalists, especially those who question Russia's role in Chechnya.

Not a good guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

Quote:
Far from being an individual tragedy, the death of Ivan Safronov will be seen by many as part of a grim trend. The Kommersant reporter is at least the 20th Russian journalist to die in suspicious circumstances since 2000, when Vladimir Putin assumed the Russian presidency. Shot, stabbed or poisoned, the journalists have two things in common: no one has been convicted, or in most cases even arrested, after their deaths. And all of them had angered powerful vested interests which appear to suffer little restraint in dealing with their enemies.

"In Russia," said Oleg Panfilov, president of the Moscow-based Centre for Journalism in Extreme Situations (CJES), "whenever you are investigating something that could destroy someone else's business, it always generates a reaction - often it is murder."

A specialist in military matters, Ivan Safronov revealed embarrassing failings in the Russian defence programme. Shortly before his death, he was reported to be working on an exposé of Moscow's secret arms deals with Iran and Syria, something that, if true, would have caused further scandal. "He covered themes that could provoke a reaction," said Mr Panfilov.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-20-journalists-who-have-lost-their-lives-in-putins-russia-439783.html
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 01:56 pm
@sozobe,
Well, he seems to have a lot of people fooled. I know some people that think he is just the cat's meow when it comes to Christianity. It's kind of why I'm trying to learn all I can about him. I appreciate your help!
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 02:57 pm
O..................k, this is not a nice guy at all! On his 54th birthday Anna Politkovskaya was shot in her apartment building in Moscow. It was recorded on video and the murderer got away!

He doesn't think much of the U.S. either. We are parasites to the global economy he says.

Seems best not to speak against him and his politics if you live in Russia.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 03:52 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
He doesn't think much of the U.S. either. We are parasites to the global economy he says.


Putin is hardly the only one who believes that the US is a parasite on the world economy, Arella.

The US gobbles the world's resources at a rate that is obscene.

The US military uses as much fossil fuel as a lot of countries.

The US has pillaged the wealth of numerous poor countries around the world, in the process killing millions of innocent civilians, not to mention torturing and raping.

Reagan, Bush and Bush were war criminals of massive proportion.

I agree that Putin probably isn't all he is cracked up to be, but come on, let's do keep some perspective here.




OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 03:58 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Reagan, Bush and Bush were war criminals of massive proportion.
Really???? Will u identify which statutes u accuse them of having violated,
so that we can judge whether or not thay did??





David
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 04:52 pm
@Arella Mae,
I'm not surprised he's getting some fans amongst the tea party set.

From PRAVDA:
Quote:
Russia's Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin, is a good Orthodox Christian but you would never know that from the way the West portrays him in the media. They have their own reasons for hiding this from everyone. Russia seeks expansion not as the atheistic monster from the Soviet Union, but as a Christian nation that overcame a turbulent and horrific past. Christians in Russia have survived Hell's fury from communism. The blood that once soaked the land was the seed for Russia's new destiny. The evil that spread from Russia in 1917 to the West will be destroyed by Russia's renewed faith that will heal the world.

American liberals hate the Tea Party and Christians in "public view". They demonize Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann and ridicule Christians in America as crazed right-wingers. They danced when President Reagan, Jerry Falwell and Charlton Heston died. There is no longer a powerful conservative in the West the liberals fear. They know they can handle the majority of America through Hollywood and the entertainment media.

They control America as a toy captivates a child.

Putin has real world power, which causes the liberal media to fearfully ignore or warp his image. Like a good Christian King he leads a nation to Christ. As a small example, last February, Russia bought some land near the Eiffel Tower where an Orthodox Church will be built. The liberals don't want Russia's Christianity to spread and re-Christianize Europe. Liberals, like most Democrats in America, would hate Russia if they inspired and renewed Christians throughout the world.

Putin moves West. With the World Cup coming to Russia in 2018, the writing is already on the wall and Prime Minister Putin seeks to expand to the West, not militarily but economically and more importantly, allowing the kingdom of Christianity to spread. One way to do that is to have a Visa free trade zone between Europe and Russia to stimulate the economy. Putin helped to bring the World Cup to his country and it is only logical to open the doors between Europe and Russia. RT reports about the Visa free travel here.

Putin told the Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper, "Europe needs its own vision of the future. We propose to shape it together, through a Russia-EU partnership. It would be our joint bid for success and competitiveness in the modern world."
More
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 05:40 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
He doesn't think much of the U.S. either. We are parasites to the global economy he says.


Putin is hardly the only one who believes that the US is a parasite on the world economy, Arella.

The US gobbles the world's resources at a rate that is obscene.

The US military uses as much fossil fuel as a lot of countries.

The US has pillaged the wealth of numerous poor countries around the world, in the process killing millions of innocent civilians, not to mention torturing and raping.

Reagan, Bush and Bush were war criminals of massive proportion.

I agree that Putin probably isn't all he is cracked up to be, but come on, let's do keep some perspective here.







Considering it looks like he is a "murderer" I think calling us parasites really doesn't mean a whole lot. I am just learning about him and was just putting stuff I had read in the post.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 05:52 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
Considering it looks like he is a "murderer" I think calling us parasites really doesn't mean a whole lot.


Putin didn't invent this, he was just repeating the facts, Arella.

A murderer, he may well be. That doesn't change the fact that Reagan, Bush, Bush, Cheney, ... are also murderers and war criminals.

This is what mystifies so. How is it that so many Americans' fingers are so at the ready to point out all the bad guys of the world when y'all have so many truly hideous bad guys right at home.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 06:15 pm
@JTT,
I am currently trying to learn about the Russian Orthodox Church and Putin.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 06:17 pm
@Arella Mae,
That's one of the top five excuses, Arella; in fact, it might be numero uno.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 06:21 pm
@JTT,
What are you talking about? Excuse for what? Um, if you read my top post that I started this thread with...........................and Putin is Russian Orthodox.............see how that works?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 07:11 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
and Putin is Russian Orthodox.............see how that works?


Your 2nd post, Arella:

" Okay, now, what is your take on Russia's Vladimir Putin? Good guy or bad guy? I'm finding lots of opinions both wasy."

Quote:
What are you talking about? Excuse for what?


Let's don't pretend. You know what I'm talking about. You can leap right into a discussion about the evil doers - a cosmic shift - as long as those evil doers aren't from the good ole US of A. Then it's every excuse under the Sun to avoid discussing what you know to be really uncomfortable truths.

As I said, Americans are mighty good at pointing fingers when they really shouldn't oughta be doin' that, for reasons that are all too apparent, though for some very odd reason, they're just not spoken about.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 07:17 pm
@JTT,
The reason I asked about the Russian Orthodox has everything to do with Putin. Someone in the chatroom exalts the daylights out of that guy. Knowing that person as I do, if they knew much about Russian Orthodox I don't think they'd be so hot on Putin. Now, I did not explain all of that in my first post and I really didn't think I had to.

I swear JTT, if I asked for a recipe for a BLT somehow, some way, we'd end up in the same place. Laughing
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 07:37 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
Like a good Christian King he leads a nation to Christ.


Vladamir Putin = "a good Christian King"
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2011 07:39 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
if they knew much about Russian Orthodox I don't think they'd be so hot on Putin.


Okay, I'll bite.

Quote:
I swear JTT, if I asked for a recipe for a BLT somehow, some way, we'd end up in the same place.


That's definitely a new excuse, Arella.

 

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