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Manufacturing Confusion

 
 
Scrat
 
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 03:29 pm
Manufacturing confusion
Thomas Sowell

January 15, 2004

"Manufacturing jobs" has become a battle cry of those who oppose free trade and are sounding an alarm about American jobs being exported to lower-wage countries overseas. However, manufacturing jobs are much less of a problem than manufacturing confusion.

Much of what is being said confuses what is true of one sector of the economy with what is true of the economy as a whole. Every modern economy is constantly changing in technology and organization. This means that resources -- human resources as well as natural resources and other inputs -- are constantly being sent off in new directions as things are being produced in new ways.

This happens whether there is or is not free international trade. At the beginning of the 20th century, 10 million American farmers and farm laborers produced the food to feed a population of 76 million people. By the end of the century, fewer than 2 million people on the farms were feeding a population of more than 250 million. In other words, more than 8 million agricultural jobs were "lost."

Between 1990 and 1995, more than 17 million American workers lost their jobs. But there were never 17 million workers unemployed during this period, any more than the 8 million agricultural workers were unemployed before.

People moved on to other jobs. Unemployment rates in fact hit new lows in the 1990s. None of this is rocket science. But when the very same things happen in the international economy, it is much easier to spread alarm and manufacture confusion.

There is no question that many computer programming jobs have moved from the United States to India. But this is just a half-truth, which can be worse than a lie. As management consultant Peter Drucker points out in the current issue of Fortune magazine, there are also foreign jobs moving to the United States.

In Drucker's words, "Nobody seems to realize that we import twice or three times as many jobs as we export. I'm talking about the jobs created by foreign companies coming into the U.S.," such as Japanese automobile plants making Toyotas and Hondas on American soil.

"Siemens alone has 60,000 employees in the United States," Drucker points out. "We are exporting low-skill, low-paying jobs but are importing high-skill, high-paying jobs."

None of this is much consolation if you are one of the people being displaced from a job that you thought would last indefinitely. But few jobs last indefinitely. You cannot advance the standard of living by continuing to do the same things in the same ways.

Progress means change, whether those changes originate domestically or internationally. Even when a given job carries the same title, often you cannot hold that job while continuing to do things the way they were done 20 years ago -- or, in the case of computers, 5 years ago.

The grand fallacy of those who oppose free trade is that low-wage countries take jobs away from high-wage countries. While that is true for some particular jobs in some particular cases, it is another half-truth that is more misleading than an outright lie.

While American companies can hire computer programmers in India to replace higher paid American programmers, that is because of India's outstanding education in computer engineering. By and large, however, the average productivity of Indian workers is about 15 percent of that of American workers.

In other words, if you hired Indian workers and paid them one-fifth of what you paid American workers, it would cost you more to get a given job done in India. That is the rule and computer programming is the exception.

Facts are blithely ignored by those who simply assume that low-wage countries have an advantage in international trade. But high-wage countries have been exporting to low-wage countries for centuries. The vast majority of foreign investments by American companies are in high-wage countries, despite great outcries about how multinational corporations are "exploiting" Third World workers.

Apparently facts do not matter to those who are manufacturing confusion about manufacturing jobs.

Link > http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20040115.shtml
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 4,910 • Replies: 76
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PegasusPatt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2004 07:51 am
There are so very many "truth's" in what you are saying, but may I ask you this? How does one justify the laying off of American Companies & shutting the Manufacturing Plants down completely, just so that Immigrants from other Countries, (some legal, some not), to have a false front on that shut-down Manufacturing Plant, & placing "less-paid" workers there, & then call that fair to the American People that have just gotten their notifications that their jobs are gone? Can you explain this to me inparticular?

Also, on Foreign Trade... This Country has been trading w/other Countries for as long as I can remember! Now there's more trade than ever... This is not neccesarilly a bad thing, this Country needs everything it can get to make up for the Trillions of Dollars being spent on/for other Foreign Countries, but is it fair to the American people as a whole to take our jobs, send us to the unemployment/employment lines to take scraps that have been left, & expect to make a living?

To the best of my knowledge, (& I think I'm on the money w/this one), the Social Security Administration calls work, "Substantial Gainful Employment", meaning that one "should" be able to make ends meet w/their Job, BUT, I, being disabled for 23 yrs. now, try to get myself any type of part time employment, (believe me when I tell you that one cannot make ends meet on Social Security Disability), & then have the potential Employer rip up an Application in your face & tell you that, "You are a risk to employment at my Company"... Is this fair, especially when you've got 10 people immediately after you, scheduled right then & there for an Interview? And, to top it all off, that next person can't even speak the English Language well enough to understand which way to go, after just being "pointed" in the right direction! Another example of Imported Jobs my friend... On the other hand though, we have many American people seeking Employment overseas or anywhere but the U.S. Why? Because our jobs here at home are being given to Folks from other Countries seeking Life, Liberty, & the Pursuit of Happiness... But the irony of all of the "pursuits" is that the majority of them are only here long enough to make a bundle of U.S. Dollars, then going back to where they came from, & living like Royalty! That, simply put, "Ain't right"!!!

Again, we've been "trading" w/other Countries for many, many yrs, & I feel quite sure we will continue to do such, but what worries me, is the fact that Foreign Trade has gotten completely out of hand, & is only going to get worse... Worse, because Americans are doing w/out in their Bank Accounts because their Job just went half way around the World, or even more dissapointing, just across our very own Borders, which by the way, really should be put under lock & key, unless someone has the appropriate "Paperwork" to get them in at all times. Being taught proper English to do Trade of any kind should be made mandatory as well...

I thank you for your time, & your patience of hearing one side of your story replied to, & believe me when I tell you that I could write more than the Moderators here would probably allow me to put at their Site... Have a great day, & again Thank You for your time. Smile

Respectfully,
Patt
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 12:45 pm
PegasusPatt wrote:
There are so very many "truth's" in what you are saying, but may I ask you this? How does one justify the laying off of American Companies & shutting the Manufacturing Plants down completely, just so that Immigrants from other Countries, (some legal, some not), to have a false front on that shut-down Manufacturing Plant, & placing "less-paid" workers there, & then call that fair to the American People that have just gotten their notifications that their jobs are gone? Can you explain this to me inparticular?

If you can give me an idea what you are referring to here, I can certainly try to respond to it.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 01:27 pm
It seems to me that the left is torn. They will decry the closing of factories and scream when jobs are lost, yet in the same breath scream that corporate welfare is wrong and that companies should not be getting breaks from the government.

Can anyone explain this paradox?
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 01:59 pm
marking.
0 Replies
 
cockney sparrer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:01 pm
More jobs being lost in America. The Dollar falling in value against the UKĀ£ & the Euro.
More new jobs being created in the UK & unemployment falling, even tho some jobs here have moved to India.
Trade across the Atlantic is huge in both directions.
Many UK & USA companies invest vast sums of money in each others country.
The Uk could be said to be a clone (in part) of America. Yet the USA is 4 times bigger in population, with huge mineral deposits & land mass. How can USA's economics/jobs fall ?
America was at one time thought to be powerfull enough to be almost self sufficient. How can it fail ?????????
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:04 pm
How can it fail? I suppose the same could have been said in the 1930's...or in the late 1970's...I don't see it happening.

A temporary recession does not mean a country is falling apart.
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cockney sparrer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:13 pm
McG ----------------------------
Not saying it's falling apart, but I read reports that a lot of Americans are very worried about what is happening with jobs, economy & of course Iraq.
Should make November an interesting month.
A lot of responsibility to being the world's leading powerbase
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 05:15 pm
cockney sparrer wrote:
McG ----------------------------
Not saying it's falling apart, but I read reports that a lot of Americans are very worried about what is happening with jobs, economy & of course Iraq.
Should make November an interesting month.
A lot of responsibility to being the world's leading powerbase

"A lot of Americans are very worried" because a lot of the media are telling them they should be. Sadly, what many Americans "think" seems to have little to do with what is actually happening and a lot to do with what they have been told to think.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 08:23 pm
Quote:
"A lot of Americans are very worried" because a lot of the media are telling them they should be.


What media would that be? Everytime I turn on the TV to watch the news all I hear from those telling the news is how the economy is improving.

When Clinton was in office no one had to tell us the economy was improving and you can be sure that the news pundits didn't. I admit Clinton did, he was unabashedly proud of it and told it often, "the longest period of economic expansion..." I gotta admit I thought he was cute.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2004 06:33 pm
revel wrote:
Quote:
"A lot of Americans are very worried" because a lot of the media are telling them they should be.


What media would that be? Everytime I turn on the TV to watch the news all I hear from those telling the news is how the economy is improving.

Everything but whatever TV news you watch. :wink:
0 Replies
 
PegasusPatt
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2004 09:28 am
Scrat, it depends on what media you watch, & how much of it you believe... I'm not basing my opinions on what the Media tells me, I'm basing my opinions on Fact, & the fact is that some Folks have different opinions than I do, especially those w/plenty of money & time to be in denial of what's going on in this Country, that being the U.S. One can't point fingers & blame anyone & everyone, but still nothing gets accomplished, why? Because no 1 person can make much difference in most anything, but my friend, there are strength in numbers, & hopefully when Election time rolls around, the numbers will finally speak... But, we all are aware that our popular vote does not elect an Official, the Electoral Votes elect...

Have a Great Day! Wink
Patt
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 01:34 pm
PegasusPatt wrote:
Scrat, it depends on what media you watch, & how much of it you believe... I'm not basing my opinions on what the Media tells me, I'm basing my opinions on Fact, & the fact is that some Folks have different opinions than I do, especially those w/plenty of money & time to be in denial of what's going on in this Country, that being the U.S. One can't point fingers & blame anyone & everyone, but still nothing gets accomplished, why? Because no 1 person can make much difference in most anything, but my friend, there are strength in numbers, & hopefully when Election time rolls around, the numbers will finally speak... But, we all are aware that our popular vote does not elect an Official, the Electoral Votes elect...

Have a Great Day! Wink
Patt

I find it amusing that you imply that when the candidate you did not support wins, "the numbers" were not allowed to "speak". The reality is that they did speak, you may simply not like what they had to say. I also love that you know who is in denial in this country. Just a hunch, but are they all the people who disagree with you? :wink:

As to your opinions being based on facts, I have no way of knowing either way since I know neither what your opinions are nor upon what "facts" you base them. Perhaps another time... ?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 10:39 am
PegasusPatt wrote:
How does one justify the laying off of American Companies & shutting the Manufacturing Plants down completely, just so that Immigrants from other Countries

Because it's good for the immigrants, judging by their eagerness to work there. I am a third party in this, so I don't see any strong ethical reason why the happiness of an American workers should count more than the happiness of a Mexican worker. This applies to both immigrants and trading partners.

PegasusPatt wrote:
But is it fair to the American people as a whole to take our jobs, send us to the unemployment/employment lines to take scraps that have been left, & expect to make a living?

Your premise is false. Foreign trade has nearly no impact at all on the level of American employment. It's profits and wages that it has an impact on.

Quote:
But the irony of all of the "pursuits" is that the majority of them are only here long enough to make a bundle of U.S. Dollars, then going back to where they came from, & living like Royalty! That, simply put, "Ain't right"!!!

I don't understand why it ain't right. What's wrong with it?
0 Replies
 
PegasusPatt
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 07:03 am
To begin with, I have not made my mind up as to who to support yet in November... Whomever it will be won't actually matter, for the Electoral Votes Elect our leader of the Highest Seat in this Country, but one can hope, yes?

As to who's right & who's wrong, well, no one person can be right all of the time... (Or wrong either...)

And, as to where I get my facts, I look around to the people I see that's wondering where their next job is going to wind up, China, Taiwan, etc... Yes, Trade is a good thing if handled right, do I personally believe it is? NO, but then again that's just an opinion, & everyone's got one, including me...

And, as to "it" not being right, well, it ain't... How would you like for someone to come & work for cheap labor, at YOUR job, while your Family does w/out? Is that fair or right? Please enlighten me... Now, is it right, or ain't it? lol Wink

If the Mexican worker wants happiness, then let him find it where he may, but just not take an American job away from a Man or Woman that's been on that job for many yrs., & depends on THAT job to take care of their Family... Ask "that" Family worker if it's right, & he/she will politely tell you "no it ain't right". Also, if that Immigrant Worker has the appropriate Paperwork to entitle him/her to the work force in this Country, so be it, my main gripe about that issue is that the vast majority does not, now will they ever. Hell, this Country's so blind it's pathetic, but only where they, (the Politicians & the greedy), feel they need to be, but watch the "blinders" go up & on w/this subject, for none of us feels the same...

That's all I have to say for now, but you want facts, I'll find them fo you my friend, for that is indeed not a big task, all one has to do is talk to the man down the street that lost his 18 yr. old job this Winter, & Christmas at his house was slim, but they had Love & Love will eventually conquer all obstacles of discontent, but only where it grows everyday, & will continue to tomorrow as well... But one thing's for sure, Love, not unlike many other things, require nurturing, & I don't know that some Folks even care about that anymore, but I do...

Have An Illustrious Day!
Patt Smile
0 Replies
 
PegasusPatt
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 07:08 am
DENIAL???
Scrat wrote:
PegasusPatt wrote:
Scrat, it depends on what media you watch, & how much of it you believe... I'm not basing my opinions on what the Media tells me, I'm basing my opinions on Fact, & the fact is that some Folks have different opinions than I do, especially those w/plenty of money & time to be in denial of what's going on in this Country, that being the U.S. One can't point fingers & blame anyone & everyone, but still nothing gets accomplished, why? Because no 1 person can make much difference in most anything, but my friend, there are strength in numbers, & hopefully when Election time rolls around, the numbers will finally speak... But, we all are aware that our popular vote does not elect an Official, the Electoral Votes elect...

Have a Great Day! Wink
Patt

I find it amusing that you imply that when the candidate you did not support wins, "the numbers" were not allowed to "speak". The reality is that they did speak, you may simply not like what they had to say. I also love that you know who is in denial in this country. Just a hunch, but are they all the people who disagree with you? :wink:

As to your opinions being based on facts, I have no way of knowing either way since I know neither what your opinions are nor upon what "facts" you base them. Perhaps another time... ?


Scrat, did you ever stop to think that perhaps the "denial" issue here could be coming from your side of the keyboard? My so-called "Candidate" didn't win or lose, just for the record, but if he had, I do not believe we would be having this discussion now, for it's obvious you're in denial of how the Election Process works, check into it, & have a wonderful rest of your weekend! You are truly a piece of work, no "doubts" or "denials" there for sure... lol Wink Keep on w/your keepin' on, we'll be here... Smile
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 07:16 am
Hi Patt.

I noticed that you are from KY, I am too.

I am not sure how I feel on the subject you are talking about. Other than laws are made to be followed so immigrants should have to follow them as well.

My main concern is that since so many immigrants are willing to work for cheap and unfair wages our wages and benefits will become like theirs and will have made in vain all the hard work that unions and protestors made with unfair labor practices in the past.
0 Replies
 
PegasusPatt
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 07:43 am
Laws For Immigrants of ANY Country
revel wrote:
Hi Patt.

I noticed that you are from KY, I am too.

I am not sure how I feel on the subject you are talking about. Other than laws are made to be followed so immigrants should have to follow them as well.

My main concern is that since so many immigrants are willing to work for cheap and unfair wages our wages and benefits will become like theirs and will have made in vain all the hard work that unions and protestors made with unfair labor practices in the past.



Hi Revel! I'm in the Southwestern part of KY, (Hopkinsville, to be exact), & I feel the same as you, thus the post I made a short while ago... But, there are a lot of Folks that do not understand this issue... Why? Because they've never lost their job to an Immigrant that's in this Country illegally to begin with... The rest of it is anyone's guess I suppose, but I know in my heart I'm right w/my beliefs, but God created us all in a different way, meanin' minds/opinions, etc...Thus, the differential in the way that some people take certain things from concept instead of looking around their own hometown, in mine, it's not pleasant anymore, for there are people that are homeless or about to be, because another "illegal" Immigrant Worker just got their job of yrs. & yrs. & now is wondering how to keep a roof over his Famiy's head & food in there stomach. But, some Folks just don't get that aspect of it, I don't know that they ever will... Sometimes one has to walk the road to understand it, that, I have done, didn't like it either, but did I have a choice, no I did not, but I've lived as best as I can, & hope the good Lord will help guide me the rest of the way, for the Politicians w/big money cronies, are on everyone's heals tryin' to figure out a way to rook them of what they have got, no matter how big or small... Just food for thought my KY friend...

Have a Great Rest of Your Day! Wink
Patt
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 08:20 am
PegasusPatt wrote:
And, as to "it" not being right, well, it ain't... How would you like for someone to come & work for cheap labor, at YOUR job, while your Family does w/out

I would hate it. But the whole point of 'right' and 'wrong' is that they are not the same as 'I like it' and 'I don't like it'. I don't care what you like and what you hate, and you don't care what I like and what I hate. But we both care about what's right and what's wrong. is

PegasusPatt wrote:
Is Is that fair or right? Please enlighten me... Now, is it right, or ain't it? lol Wink

I think the displeasure for you of losing your job is much smaller than the pleasure for the Cambodian worker of sending his kids to school instead of selling them to brothel owners. Because the your loss and his gain come in a package, I think 'it' is, on balance, right.

PegasusPatt wrote:
If the Mexican worker wants happiness, then let him find it where he may, but just not take an American job away from a Man or Woman that's been on that job for many yrs., & depends on THAT job to take care of their Family

It's not 'an American job'. As I see it, everybody can work for everyone he wants to, and everyone can hire everybody he wants to, on any terms both sides can agree on. It's all between employee and employer. I don't see what nations have to do with it.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 01:25 pm
Patt,

I don't know if it is a safe thing to tell so exactly where you live, but suffice it to say I could get to where you live in a day. My parents lived there when they first were married and my dad was in the Army. My husband's mom used to work in the sewing factory there. Maybe sometime you could email me or something? I would like to get to know you.

I don't blame the immigrants except that I think laws should be followed. (If it is a bad law then the law should be changed. But you can't have people flouting the rule of law or there will be a mess) But if you lived in a place where you were starving and could go to another place to work for at least some money, I imagine that you would do it. I blame the company owners who hire those undocumented workers so that they don't have to pay benefits and all that and so they can get away with unfair labor wages. In other words if an immigrant was here legally and had papers to prove it or whatever and worked at a normal job with normal wages then I don't have a problem with it even if that person was chosen over a citizen for one reason or another. I worry about the labor wage situation going backwards now instead of foward.
0 Replies
 
 

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