19
   

Whats One Thing You Hated About School?

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 06:28 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Here's a tip:
the word "and" is a conjunction; (its to CONJOIN things together)
i.e., its like glue or Scotch Tape to attach a sentence fragment
to the rest of the sentence. For years and for CENTURIES people have been starting sentences with conjunctions,
but it is against logic to do that because if u do, the sentence becomes a SENTENCE FRAGMENT.

If u do it, u will probably be able to get away with it,
but it does not make u look like a logical person to do that.

I most respectfully suggest that u don 't start a sentence with "and" or "but".


As we move along in what promises to be an ongoing discussion of English grammar and how language is actually used in all the different registers - casual speech, newspapers, academic, fiction/novels - it will become abundantly clear to everyone that OmSigDavid hasn't the foggiest notion of how to explain English or its grammar.

All he is doing is repeating worn out old prescriptions that he read/heard in his youth. His silly notions find no support in tradition, in modern use or in the field of language science.

Here's two examples. The second source is an out of date resource and even that one points out how silly Om's idea is. OmSig's idea of proof is to loudly declare that such and such is against logic.

Quote:
Starting a sentence with a conjunction
Occasionally I come across an adult who still thinks it’s improper to start a sentence with a conjunction. Others think that starting a sentence with a conjunction is an innovation and should be done only sparingly, if at all. For those folks, I offer this passage from the King James Bible (circa 1611). I’ll put the passage in blue and the first word of each sentence in red.

And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Luke 2:6–14.

By my count, there are nine sentences; eight of them begin with a conjunction.

http://raymondpward.typepad.com/newlegalwriter/2007/02/starting_a_sent.html




Quote:
A frequently asked question about conjunctions is whether and or but can be used at the beginning of a sentence. This is what R.W. Burchfield has to say about this use of and:

There is a persistent belief that it is improper to begin a sentence with And, but this prohibition has been cheerfully ignored by standard authors from Anglo-Saxon times onwards. An initial And is a useful aid to writers as the narrative continues.
from The New Fowler's Modern English Usage
edited by R.W. Burchfield. Clarendon Press: Oxford, England. 1996.
Used with the permission of Oxford University Press.
The same is true with the conjunction but. A sentence beginning with and or but will tend to draw attention to itself and its transitional function. Writers should examine such sentences with two questions in mind: (1) would the sentence and paragraph function just as well without the initial conjunction? (2) should the sentence in question be connected to the previous sentence? If the initial conjunction still seems appropriate, use it.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conjunctions.htm



I purposefully chose the second source to show that even a website filled with errors about English knows that this old canard is nonsense.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 06:28 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
No. I'm not interested in doing that. I don't lose stuff often.
OK, but failure to DO so can be painful.
GracieGirl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 06:28 pm
@ossobuco,
Hey that's okay! You've done a ton! Thanks ossobucco! You don't have to go through all that trouble. Those are awesome links and thanks to you, if I need more help I know that I can ask Roberta. You're really too nice. Haha! Smile
I have more than enough help now. With Roberta, JTT and David helping me I might end up knowing more than my teacher! Laughing Laughing

THANKS GUYS! Very Happy Very Happy Your great friends! Smile
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 06:36 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
But doing it all the time would be a serious pain in the ass, and I'm not here for work.

Each to his or her own. I did save, as you might have noticed. I might wake up tomorrow and find the rest of them again - I pretty much remember the pages.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 06:39 pm
@GracieGirl,
I'm a woman and don't listen to JTT or David on grammar; well, jtt sometimes.

I like both of them somewhat but tend to disagree.

Which reminds me, I once had a friend who described himself as "tending to disagree". Well, it was a blind date. Didn't work out.
His idea of a good second date was parachuting..
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 06:43 pm
@JTT,
I really like this by Tom Waits. One of the things that makes it so powerful, is the continued use of 'And' at the beginning of so many lines.
Quote:
Well it's Ninth and Hennepin
All the doughnuts have names that sound like prostitutes
And the moon's teeth marks are on the sky
Like a tarp thrown all over this
And the broken umbrellas like dead birds
And the steam comes out of the grill
Like the whole goddamn town's ready to blow...
And the bricks are all scarred with jailhouse tattoos
And everyone is behaving like dogs
And the horses are coming down Violin Road
And Dutch is dead on his feet
And all the rooms they smell like diesel
And you take on the dreams of the ones who have slept here
And I'm lost in the window, and I hide in the stairway
And I hang in the curtain, and I sleep in your hat...
And no one brings anything small into a bar around here
They all started out with bad directions
And the girl behind the counter has a tattooed tear
One for every year he's away, she said
Such a crumbling beauty, ah
There's nothing wrong with her that a hundred dollars won't fix
She has that razor sadness that only gets worse
With the clang and the thunder of the Southern Pacific going by
And the clock ticks out like a dripping faucet
til you're full of rag water and bitters and blue ruin
And you spill out over the side to anyone who will listen...
And I've seen it all, I've seen it all
Through the yellow windows of the evening train...

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 06:55 pm
@JTT,
This discussion of Sentence Initial Conjunctions has been moved to,

Starting a sentence with a conjunction

http://able2know.org/topic/176229-1#post-4706377
0 Replies
 
GracieGirl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 06:56 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
David

I know you're trying to help, but you don't have to edit my posts. I know that 'your' is possessive and 'you're' is a contraction of you are. I also know that 'alot' should be 'a lot'. Haha! Smile When I talk/type here on a2k I don't care about my grammar too much. I know the correct way to write it, I just dont feel like writing the correct way all the time, ya know? Ha!

I was also taught to never start a sentence with a FANBOYS. For, And, Nor, But, Or, Yet, So. I know about conjunctions too, David. Smile

I know I've asked for some help with grammar and stuff but that doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. I don't really like it how you pointed out all my mistakes like that. I know how to write, and I think I'm a pretty good writer. I'll tell you what I need help with. Smile Please don't correct me unless I ask. I know you were just being nice but I don't like it. Very Happy

Also, I know you dont get along with JTT but you don't have to say mean things about her. Would you want people talking to YOU like that? I like JTT. I don't know her but she helped me out when I needed help. You shouldn't say things like listening to her would make me flunk my class. It's mean AND it's not true. If I follow your logic I'll fail English for sure. Ur, should, ez and thawt aren't words and if I write an essay for class using that spelling they'll probably put me in remedial classes instead of advanced. Haha! Smile Let's not be mean, OK?

I like you alot. I wanna be friends but some of the things you say are wrong and I dont like it. Just being honest. I'm not trying to be mean. Sorry if it sounds that way. Smile
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 07:02 pm
@izzythepush,
This illustrates, Izzy, the completely implausible fantasies of those who support these prescriptions - their ideas have no connection to reality.
0 Replies
 
GracieGirl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 07:04 pm
@izzythepush,
I like it too! What's the name of it?
GracieGirl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 07:05 pm
@ossobuco,
Haha! Your funny! Laughing
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 07:41 pm
@GracieGirl,
GracieGirl wrote:
David

I know you're trying to help, but you don't have to edit my posts. I know that 'your' is possessive and 'you're' is a contraction of you are. I also know that 'alot' should be 'a lot'. Haha! Smile When I talk/type here on a2k I don't care about my grammar too much. I know the correct way to write it, I just dont feel like writing the correct way all the time, ya know? Ha!

I was also taught to never start a sentence with a FANBOYS. For, And, Nor, But, Or, Yet, So. I know about conjunctions too, David. Smile

I know I've asked for some help with grammar and stuff but that doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. I don't really like it how you pointed out all my mistakes like that. I know how to write, and I think I'm a pretty good writer. I'll tell you what I need help with. Smile Please don't correct me unless I ask. I know you were just being nice but I don't like it. Very Happy

Also, I know you dont get along with JTT but you don't have to say mean things about her. Would you want people talking to YOU like that? I like JTT. I don't know her but she helped me out when I needed help. You shouldn't say things like listening to her would make me flunk my class. It's mean AND it's not true. If I follow your logic I'll fail English for sure. Ur, should, ez and thawt aren't words and if I write an essay for class using that spelling they'll probably put me in remedial classes instead of advanced. Haha! Smile Let's not be mean, OK?

I like you alot. I wanna be friends but some of the things you say are wrong and I dont like it. Just being honest. I'm not trying to be mean. Sorry if it sounds that way. Smile
OK. Its very difficult for me to know
what u r already aware of
and what u don 't know.

Do whatever u think is best.
I will stop offering advice to u. Good luck.





David
GracieGirl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 07:59 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I'm sorry. It's not that I don't want your advice. I DO actually. It's just that, it kinda seemed like you thought I didn't know anything. I need some help and advice on SOME things not everything. I'll ask what I need help on or with. You don't need to edit my posts though.

(sigh) I don't know. I guess I was just a little 'offended' when I saw all the corrections and stuff in red. It was stupid. I'm sorry. I wasnt trying to be a brat about it. I like it when you guys help me but I don't want you to think I'm an idiot. I really appreciate how nice you are to me.

I'm sorry. Don't be mad at me. I was trying to be nice. Honest. I didn't mean to sound bratty. I was just saying what I think. Are we okay?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 08:03 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
OK. Its very difficult for me to know
what u r already aware of
and what u don 't know.


It isn't actually, Dave, IF you thought about it.

But doesn't it seem to you to be highly illogical to suggest one should exercise care wrt your and you're when you advocate yur?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 08:10 pm
Gracie, our grammar radicals, David and JTT, are romancing you with their points of view.

Stop liking all of us (including me) because we talk to you, and use your head.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 08:21 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Gracie, our grammar radicals, David and JTT, are romancing you with their points of view.


Osso, you really have to check out the material before you go off half cocked like this.

http://able2know.org/topic/176229-1

Mark Lieberman, a linguist from U Penn is hardly a grammar radical.

R.W. Burchfield, the editor of The New Fowler's Modern English Usage is hardly a grammar radical. The notion that Fowler himself was a grammar radical is ludicrous in the extreme.

I picked conservative opinions for this issue even going so far as to pick some prescriptive sources, all of which stated that the "rule" against starting a sentence with a conjunction is nonsense.

One thing you have to learn - a descriptivist can't be a grammar radical. It's impossible. Descriptivists describe reality.
0 Replies
 
GracieGirl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 08:21 pm
@ossobuco,
Right. Okay
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 08:28 pm
@GracieGirl,
GracieGirl wrote:
I'm sorry. It's not that I don't want your advice. I DO actually. It's just that, it kinda seemed like you thought I didn't know anything.
From what u had written, I thought ( in error )
that u WANTED correction. That 's Y I did it.
I believed that u 'd like it.
There r adults who have posted in this forum for quite a few years
who frequently make those very same mistakes.



GracieGirl wrote:
I need some help and advice on SOME things not everything. I'll ask what I need help on or with. You don't need to edit my posts though.
There is no chance whatsoever that that will happen again.



GracieGirl wrote:
(sigh) I don't know. I guess I was just a little 'offended' when I saw all the corrections and stuff in red. It was stupid. I'm sorry. I wasnt trying to be a brat about it. I like it when you guys help me but I don't want you to think I'm an idiot. I really appreciate how nice you are to me.

I'm sorry. Don't be mad at me. I was trying to be nice. Honest. I didn't mean to sound bratty. I was just saying what I think. Are we okay?
Yes, fine, but I'm not offering any more advice.
U have enuf advisors already. I wish u the best.





David
GracieGirl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2011 08:41 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Okay, fine. Whatever
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2011 03:06 am
@GracieGirl,
GracieGirl wrote:

I like it too! What's the name of it?

9th & Hennepin, from the album Rain Dogs.
0 Replies
 
 

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