Gun control...

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Yes, he was like a fox in a chicken coop
because all of his victims were unarmed.

Yes, that was the feeling that bothered me.

But I thought about another thing. This guy shot and killed 68 people, and 8 died in the bomb explosion. There are still people unaccounted for after the incident.
It is tragic. But if we were allowed to carry guns around with us here in Norway, how many would be killed in the course of a year, or ten years? I suspect that the number would be higher, and would that be any less tragic?

2 Replies

@JLNobody,

Quote:

By the way, explosives should be regulated as well.

I read that the bomb was made of fertilizer. There are so many common, everyday substances that can be used to make bombs with only a minimum of knowledge about chemistry that it would perhaps be virtually impossible to regulate it.
But in Norway explosives are strictly regulated. I don't even know who sells dynamite, for instance, and I am pretty sure most norwegians are equally oblivious.

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@Cyracuz,

David wrote:

Yes, he was like a fox in a chicken coop
because all of his victims were unarmed.

Cyracuz wrote:

Yes, that was the feeling that bothered me.

But I thought about another thing. This guy shot and killed 68 people, and 8 died in the bomb explosion.
There are still people unaccounted for after the incident.
It is tragic. But if we were allowed to carry guns around with us here in Norway,
how many would be killed in the course of a year, or ten years?
I suspect that the number would be higher, and would that be any less tragic?

Well, in America, the State of Vermont has never had any gun laws
and it has a continuing tradition of very, very low crime every year,
but more than zero.

When criminals know that their victims are well armed
thay realize that it is dangerous to commit a violent crime upon them (e.g., robbery).
When thay hear of their fellows being cut down by the defensive gunfire
of their victims, it may have a deterrent, dissuasive effect.

In my own case, I was a victim of violence (inaccurate gunfire, incidental to a robbery),
but the bad guys FLED, most swiftly,
as soon as thay saw my defensive revolver.

Interestingly, I had been counselled many years before that
that (especially for use at nite) reflective, silver colored guns
are best for scarring away the bad guys (particularly in low lite conditions).

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

JLNobody wrote:
By the way, explosives should be regulated as well.
Including home-made ones, right??

Have the murderers apply for licenses, yea.

Explosives are well regulated at this time.

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@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

That was when they were a serious store, or so I thought.

Is there a problem with Abercrombie and Finch, now ?
[/quote]

With a population of ~ 40,000 we even have one of their stores here. As they had a reputation (had) for high quality outdoors equipment, I wondered in one time. What they seemed to be selling was blue jeans with holes in the knees, and bleached spots on the butt. I wandered back out, and right smartly. Maybe in NYC it's a different world.

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@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

When criminals know that their victims are well armed
thay realize that it is dangerous to commit a violent crime upon them (e.g., robbery).

They make sure they're well tooled up and they shoot to kill. Burglars don't tend to be armed with guns in the UK. The sentence is considerably greater if they are.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Questioner wrote:

There is no perfect answer, and this isn't a perfect world. Do away with firearms and we'll just go back to people carrying huge knives around.

Knives don't kill anyway near as many people as guns.

Knives and guns don't kill anyone. The crazies do. Which was more of my point. There will always be crazies and there will always be a means for them to do crazy things to innocent people. The prevalence of guns just make it easier for now.

If only we had a surefire way to regulate the crazies.

1 Reply

@Questioner,

Crazies can kill more people with guns than they can with knives. Knives are essential for everyday living, especially in the kitchen, guns are not.

2 Replies

To be honest, the Gun Control debate has always been a hard one for me. In school/college I constantly debated for it, and to a certain degree I still do. However, right after college, with my new wife in tow living in a semi-shady neighborhood, having a shotgun saved us from being robbed for sure, but also from likely violence from a knife-wielding intruder.

Now I just won't own a home without a gun. I don't care if it's registered, stamped, my background's run, or I have to wait for 4 months to get it. I'm keeping a gun in my home for protection. At the end of the day, I'm not going to trust my fists or 'escort holds' to keep an intruder or criminal at bay.

I welcome strict regulations. Banning isn't acceptable to me.

1 Reply

@Questioner,

To be quite honest if I lived in a country that was as awash with guns as America, I'd probably want one too.

0 Replies

@Questioner,

Every time I've visited the US I've been afraid. It may be irrational but I feel I have to be ever vigilant, on edge. It's not that I don't find Americans friendly, I do. But I guess I've read too many stories of people being shot while seeking help or in restaurants. I'm unsure of the protocol.
In Canada, I never give it a second thought. I don't question if an approaching stranger is carrying a gun or a bomb, a knife - sure. I'm a realist, If I see someone with a gun, like a cop or a cowboy, there is generally a purpose. Maybe we are lulled into a sense of security, but the common consensus here and it seems in Norway and England et al, is that, we want to live a life without everyone packing heat. We feel safe without guns.
Yes, this guy used both guns and explosives. He killed more people with guns and wrecked more stuff with a bomb. His fascination with violence started no doubt with his love of guns. He fired his first gun well before he made his first bomb. If, as they say, one drug leads to another. He doesn't make me want to run out and buy a gun. This makes me want to toughen laws, make it harder for crazies to own one.
I realize that it's a pipe dream in the US, but I feel much better knowing most of the people I know don't own guns. Then again, that might say more about the people I know.. Wink

1 Reply

@Ceili,

I totally agree. If the world didn't have guns, gunpowder didn't exist, everyone was happy and lived in peace I would be 100% happy with that. The unfortunate truth of the world we live in is we have guns. We have the knowledge of how to make them.

Yes, they are made to kill. Yes, they are weapons that can be easily used to quickly kill many people. The primary problem that I have with 'gun control' is it is utterly ineffectual at keeping guns out of the hands of those that intend to do serious harm to others. It is only effective in keeping guns out of the hands of those that obey laws. This renders it pointless. Gun laws as they currently exist don't do what they set out to do. They can't.

If one or two people at the camp in Oslo had a concealed carry license with a handgun, that scenario might have been very different. Maybe it wouldn't have been. But we'll never know because of Norway's stance on guns. The same stance that did nothing what-so-ever to protect innocents from a pathetic excuse of a human.

1 Reply

@Questioner,

I'd like to live in a world with no guns. Reality however will not grant me that wish. I am well aware of the existence of weapons and their accouterment, thank-you. I am also well aware that they serve a myriad of purposes. Now that we've got that clear, I hope, you will see I don't live in a fantasy world.
See, this is where is gets interesting. Gun control shouldn't only be on the owners but the manufactures too.. I've read that the US makes 5 million more guns per annum than it can sell legally. Where do you suppose the excess goes? Even if the numbers were significantly less, added over the years, this leads to a staggering number of unaccounted for guns. Many with the sole purpose of shooting people. And since all these guns enter the market from legal companies, who are the stellar citizens transferring them illegally? Sure, some are stolen, but a vast number are sent from the showroom floor directly to the palms of crooks. How is this possible?
Then there is the constant pressure from the NRA and like minded apes who insist on challenging any attempt to at making weapons less lethal or lesson the amount a person can own.
My brother, when 17, walked into a store in Wash. and bought a gun. He's not a citizen. He bought a gun. No papers, no checks, nothing. Huh? I'd say the US has done a pretty piss poor job even trying to state they've even tried any form of gun control. It doesn't exist in comparison with other nations. How is it millions of people world wide don't feel the need to carry a gun. And yet we feel safe? Why is it Americans, who've never had that luxury, always preach the opposite in times of tragedy?
Anyone can ask what if? What if some else was armed??? What if in the ensuing gun fight several more kids were killed? What if this idiot had never been permitted to use a gun? Or train with high powered weaponry? It's too late for the what ifs. The only what if that matters now is, can they stop the next monster before it's too late?

2 Replies

@izzythepush,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

When criminals know that their victims are well armed
thay realize that it is dangerous to commit a violent crime upon them (e.g., robbery).

izzythepush wrote:

They make sure they're well tooled up and they shoot to kill.

That is a FALSE statement, Pushy.
What evidence have u in support thereof?????????
I am sure that u have NONE; NO evidence that this has happened.
I challenge u on this point, Pushy.

It simply has not been the case that criminals have made any practice
of murdering citizens in America and then robbing the corpses.
That includes those States, like Vermont, that have no anti-gun laws.

It appears that your quoted statement
represents your WISHES, in that it woud tend to support
your argument for victim helplessness, IF it were true.

izzythepush wrote:

Burglars don't tend to be armed with guns in the UK.
The sentence is considerably greater if they are.

Really?

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

izzythepush wrote:
They make sure they're well tooled up and they shoot to kill.
That is a FALSE statement, Pushy.
What evidence have u in support thereof?????????
I am sure that u have NONE; NO evidence that this has happened.
I challenge u on this point, Pushy.

izzythepush wrote:
Burglars don't tend to be armed with guns in the UK.
The sentence is considerably greater if they are.
Really?
David

So I've gone from Mr. Push to Pushy. Fair enough 'Om Sig' sounds a bit like a chain smoking Buddhist. My evidence is every bit as good as yours. A bloke down the pub who was definitely an AMERICAN told me. His dad was an American too, but he wasn't there. When you start providing evidence to back up your claims then so will I. But it is just common sense.

Burglary normallyattracts a jail sentence of about 18 months for first time offences, if that, carrying a gun 5 years. That's just carrying it, not using it, or showing it. Commit aggravated burglary with a firearm you're going down for a long time.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Gun control shouldn't only be on the owners but the manufactures too..

I agree with this 100%. In fact I'd be happy if guns could only be purchased via pre-order. I doubt this will ever happen in a capitalist society, but it would certainly make things more deliberate.

Ceili wrote:

Then there is the constant pressure from the NRA and like minded apes who insist on challenging any attempt to at making weapons less lethal or lesson the amount a person can own.

Yes. Some would refer to those 'apes' as enforcers/watchdogs of America's 2nd amendment rights. And no, I'm not a member of the NRA. I own one gun which is enough for me.

Ceili wrote:

It doesn't exist in comparison with other nations. How is it millions of people world wide don't feel the need to carry a gun. And yet we feel safe? Why is it Americans, who've never had that luxury, always preach the opposite in times of tragedy?

You are assuming quite a bit here. And painting with a large brush. Yes. There are those from America that defend the right to own a gun. Primarily because they have the right to own a gun, and they enjoy that right.

As for the preaching in times of tragedy, it's typically because every time a tragic event occurs people try to blame guns for the attrocity, disregarding the human factor altogether. Does the availability of guns make it easier to commit acts of murder and violence? Absolutely. I'm not arguing against stricter gun control measures, I'm arguing against the absurdity of blaming guns or any other weapons for pre-meditated acts of violence.

Ceili wrote:

Anyone can ask what if? What if some else was armed??? What if in the ensuing gun fight several more kids were killed? What if this idiot had never been permitted to use a gun? Or train with high powered weaponry? It's too late for the what ifs. The only what if that matters now is, can they stop the next monster before it's too late?

Of course anyone can ask what-if. IE: 'What-if he wasn't allowed to own a gun. What-if the gun manufacturer had to have stricter controls. What-if he wasn't able to purchase ammunition without a background check. There are what-if's on both sides. I merely pointed out one side.

I am in agreement with you on the primary point that there needs to be more gun control and stricter checks, ESPECIALLY here in America.

1 Reply

@Questioner,

Isn't a lot of it that we're not starting from the same place? Many people in America fear gun control, because they don't want to give up their gun with all the guns that are there already. Over here we think there's enough guns already, and we could do with limiting them even more. Any suggestion of liberalising the gun ownership laws would lose millions of votes.

2 Replies

@izzythepush,

Absolutely. Also there's the American sense of entitlement, in this particular instance, backed by a second amendment right. There is a LOT of ground that would have to be covered to put in place some realistic gun control measures, and I'm not overly optimistic that it can be covered.

Hell, the politicians can't even agree to not force us into default which ought to be a no-brainer.

2 Replies

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

My husband arrived in my life with, among other aspects, cats and a rifle/shotgun. I don't know the difference.

Here's a handy guide:

Cat:

http://www.cat-talk-101.com/images/cat-body-parts-external.gif

Rifle:

The main difference is that one is a remorseless killing machine, and the other is a rifle.

3 Replies

@joefromchicago,

Hence the NRA's figure of speach: Guns don't kill, felines do.

1 Reply

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