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US To Return To Moon ... and Beyond

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 07:59 am
Truthfully, I don't expect the space program to change much over the next 20 yrs
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 05:57 pm
Over the moon, part III ...

Quote:
Are there senior citizens who need prescription drugs on the Moon? Does the religious right favor a Moon base? How about illegal immigrants, would they be willing to take Moon jobs that Americans don't want?

I'm sitting here trying to figure out what possible reason--other than science illiteracy at the White House--there could be for George W. Bush to announce a plan to build a Moon base. Manned exploration of Mars is even crazier.

As this space pointed out last month, minimum weight at departure from low-Earth orbit for a stripped-down, austere Moon base might be 600 tons, and at current NASA launch prices, it costs $15 billion to place 600 tons into low-Earth orbit. Fifteen billion is NASA's entire budget--and that's just the cost to launch the Moon thing, not to build it, staff it, and support it.

An Apollo spacecraft at departure from low-Earth orbit for the Moon weighed about 45 tons, and the manned part was tiny--astronauts could not stand up or move inside--as most of the weight was fuel. Considering that Moon-base weight would also be mostly fuel, numerous launches firing 600 tons toward the Moon for the purpose of making a base would actually result in little more than a couple of metal huts, some supplies and some antennas. Program cost for the International Space Station, currently losing air pressure, is about $100 billion, and it does not leave orbit. A rough guess would be that to build something about the size of the International Space Station (ISS) on the Moon would cost at least twice as much, $200 billion. And the ISS itself is mainly cramped modules, supplies, and antennas.

What would astronauts at a Moon base do? I haven't the foggiest notion. Note that NASA has not so much as sent a robot probe to the Moon in 30 years, because as far as space-exploration advocates can tell, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, of value to do on the Moon. Geologists are interested in the Moon's formation. If there is ever a fusion reactor to meet the world's energy needs, the "helium three" on the Moon might prove useful, but fusion reactors are decades away from practicality, assuming they ever work. Spending $200 billion on a Moon base that does nothing would be pure, undiluted government waste.

And a Moon base would not only not be useful to support a Mars mission--it would be an obstacle to a Mars mission. Any weight bound for Mars can far more efficiently depart directly from low-Earth orbit than a first stop at the Moon; a stop at the Moon would require huge expenditures of fuel to land and take off again. The landing, in turn, would accomplish absolutely nothing--any mission components on the Moon would have been sent there from Earth, which means they could have departed directly for Mars from low-Earth orbit at a far lower cost.

In the days to come, any administration official who says that a Moon base could support a Mars mission is revealing himself or herself to be a total science illiterate. When you hear, "A Moon base could support a Mars mission," substitute the words, "I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about." Hint to reporters: If any administration official says "a Moon base could support a Mars mission," quickly ask, "What was the fuel fraction of the Lunar Excursion Module?" The answer is two-thirds. The LEM was what landed on the Moon during Apollo, and rocket propulsion has not changed much since, meaning that any future Mars spacecraft that stops at the Moon will expend two-thirds of its weight merely to land there and take off again. This renders the idea of stopping at the Moon on the way to Mars patent drivel. (Actually only about 15 percent of the descent weight of the LEM returned to lunar orbit, so the fuel-fraction calculation for a Moon stopover is even worse.)

Now, about this business of going to Mars. The Red Planet is plenty interesting, and men and women are sure to go there someday. For the moment, talk of a Mars mission is complete bunkum.

The Apollo spacecraft weighed 45 tons at departure from low-Earth orbit: it was gone for about ten days, carried three people and traveled about 800,000 miles total. A Mars mission would be gone for a minimum of a year (probably longer), carry at least six people (a geologist, a biologist, two physicians, and two career astronauts would be a skeleton crew), and travel 100 million miles or more total (the distance to Mars varies significantly depending on the launch year). So let's make a conservative guess and say an austere Mars-bound mission would weigh 25 times what an Apollo mission weighed, at departure from low-Earth orbit.

Now we're up to an 1,125-ton spacecraft and a $28 billion launch cost. (Probably a Mars mission would operate in segments, with several robot supply ships departing long before the manned craft; but for the cost calculation, the driving factor is total weight.) Twenty-eight billion is twice NASA's budget and, again, that is just the cost to launch the thing, not to build the ship, staff it and support it. When Bush's father asked NASA in 1989 about a Mars mission, the agency shot back a total program cost of $400 billion. That's $600 billion in today's money, and sounds about right as a Mars mission estimate. This is assuming no pointless stopover at the Moon; add a Moon base and the price zooms toward $1 trillion! We're getting into the range here of the national debt.

Some lunatics--I use that word in its astronomical context--have suggested a Mars mission could be done with a total spacecraft weight of only a couple hundred tons. Not if we want the people back! The manned part of a Mars ship would need incredible redundancy, perhaps two complete operating sections each capable of return to Earth, in case some failure occurs on the long transit. Radiation exposure will be far more of a factor in Mars travel than it was going to the Moon, which orbits within Earth's magnetic field, so many tons of shielding will be needed. The Mars ship will require a full operating theater and at least two surgeons on the crew, since what if the doctor is the one who gets injured? Probably an entire Mars ship would have to be assembled and sent there and back unmanned, just to ensure that the hardware works: meaning dozens of billions of dollars to fly an empty ship to Mars, and imagine how voters will like that. And even if the mission involves a very well-made spaceship with incredibly redundant system--and no president will authorize anything less, who would risk having to sit watching CNN show images of stranded astronauts dying on Mars?--there is risk a tragedy or fiasco.

One parting thought on the practicality of Mars. Spirit, the rover that just landed there, weighs half a ton. Spirit cost $410 million to build and place on Mars--and it's about the size of a refrigerator, and does not come back. Mars-mission proponents want to send something to the Red Planet the size of an office building, and bring it back.

What NASA needs right now is not an absurd, bank-breaking grand mission: It needs to spend a decade researching a safer lower-cost alternative to the space shuttle.

And why might George W. Bush endorse a Moon base or Mars mission? Either he's a science illiterate surrounded by advisors who are science illiterates, or it's a blank check for aerospace contractors.

posted 11:32 a.m.

Easterblogg
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 06:12 pm
The sky is falling?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 07:15 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
The sky is falling?

nah, somebody just launched a Really Bad Idea, and somebody else explained why it was such a Bad Idea - I think thats about all that happened ... why?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 08:03 pm
Don't give him the money; let him go ask the Spanish. Let them waste their resources on a long boat ride off the edge of the Earth.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 08:30 pm
Manned missions are never about science. There is always only one overriding consideration for mission planners and controllers, and that is the survival of the crew.

This is a stunt, and it will be sad if the people are suckered by it.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 08:39 pm
Setanta wrote:
Manned missions are never about science.


Curious use of the word "never" in there!

I say you are wrong!


Quote:
There is always only one overriding consideration for mission planners and controllers, and that is the survival of the crew.



Could be!


Quote:
This is a stunt, and it will be sad if the people are suckered by it.


I agree that this proposal by Bush is probably a stunt. But the idea is solid -- and I hope people finally realize that humans are going to venture into space and we've got to start somewhere.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 09:19 pm
Of course it's an election stunt - Not the slightest doubt. But that's no reason people shouldn't plan to go into space. The article above assumes that scientists are not inventive enough to overcome the odds. I say that's crap. If we bypass the moon in getting to Mars that's nothing to me. I'm not the one to make such a decision.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 09:28 pm
When you pick nits, Frank, do you do so as a public service, or are you remunerated?

Subtlety is not your strong suit.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 09:52 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
I would bet huge sums of money that the only reason the scientists feel as they do is because they don't expect to get anywhere enough money to do the kinds of science they want to do in the first place.

They, like those of us who are dreamers indulging ourselves in child-time fantasies, are every bit as interested as we are in getting humans out into those areas of our world that we can see but have not yet visited.


I would bet quite the opposite, Frank. The scientists I know recognize that this sort of harebrained scheme is what GETS them money, and that is about the only reason they go along with it. The work they do is a hard sell. It's diverse, it's often boring to the general public, there are rarely quick fixes or instant gratification. Space exploration is an easy sell. It has a beginning, a middle, an end. Drama. Fist-pumping successes. National pride. Politicians love it. And while the scientists are making it happen, a lot of money is pumped into all of the little boring incremental developments that make up scientific endeavor.

I don't get why this keeps being set up as an either/ or argument -- explore space or not. Space exploration can happen, should happen, and is happening. I mentioned Hubble (HUGELY important) and Spirit. Acquiunk mentioned a probe out by Pluto. What magical difference occurs when human eyes are observing things through a porthole or through a space helmet rather than via high-quality cameras? Since humans cannot just gallivant around sans equipment out there, why do you think there would be such a difference in all of the via-scientific-instrument stuff? Man in a space suit leans down, picks up a rock, puts it in a box to take back to earth for further study. Robot arm reaches out, picks up a rock, puts it in a box to take back to earth for further study.

This information can be USED to figure out things like colonization -- what, exactly, is the atmosphere like? What is the terrain like? Is there any water? Are there storms? What are they like? All of these questions (and many many more) need to be answered before there is any hope of sending out humans to colonize, anyway. Why do humans need to gather this data? Humans can analyze it, use it, integrate it, build on it, but gather it...?
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 09:58 pm
That's what I believe in doing: Get the data you need first and then send them up there. Only an idiot would send them first, without knowing what to expect there. Another thing, so long as there exists a possibility, however remote, that microbes are somewhere on Mars, I would never make a decision to land anybody there.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 10:06 pm
There ya go.

If the distant goal is sending them up there to colonize, I'm not completely against that (though I share Osso's and others' reservations.) But even if that is the distant goal, a heckuva lot needs to happen first.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2004 10:10 pm
Sure. I don't think anybody here is saying "Let's get a rocket of some kind and send them up next year." Realistically, I don't expect the first effort within my own lifetime.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:49 am
My point (which Frank missed altogether, predictably), is that the government never cares about science when proposing and implementing a manned program. Kennedy said we would put a man on the moon by the end of the decade, and we did. The point, superficially, was about national pride, Soz's very apt "fist-pumping successes." But the more profound, sub rosa agenda was military. The Soviet Union proved with sputnick that they were way ahead of us in the development of long-range, large pay-load rockets. We had to catch up. All of the unintended consequences of the space program, all of the dividends it paid, were not envisioned by the military, and their concern has remained what weapons systems dividends the program can offer. The repair of the Hubble telescope was one of the rare instances in which a manned mission was the appropriate response. Otherwise, the only reason the government ever gets behind manned missions in big ways is for military reasons, or reasons of prestige. Once determined upon, all of the scientific goals of those who plan portions of the missions, or which may be uppermost in the minds of the participants, are secondary considerations to mission control, whose obsessive consideration becomes bringing them back alive.

Manned missions are never about science.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 07:16 am
Setanta wrote:
When you pick nits, Frank, do you do so as a public service, or are you remunerated?

Subtlety is not your strong suit.


I've re-read my comments up above -- and I stand by them.

Why not try to deal with them rather than trying to make things personal?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 07:23 am
Frank Apisa wrote:

Why not try to deal with them rather than trying to make things personal?


That's rich, coming from you . . .
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 07:25 am
No doubt the military and government in general use the space program for their own selfish agendas. That does not lessen the need for people to be there, to experience the newest frontier firsthand. It goes beyond current science. Majellan absent; a remote controlled ship instead, is not quite the same as Majellan personally going around the world.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 07:30 am
EB, i agree with you completely, however . . . the current administration has gutted the national wealth, and the current proposal can only be for personal, partisan ends, in my never humble opinion. In the best of all possible worlds, we would support, and adequately support, both manned and unmanned missions for a host of very good reasons. I don't believe, however, that the government ever has such ends in mind. And i believe that members of Congress only support the space program insofar as they see it redounding to their credit with the electorate, or because it means political pork in their districts.

In the concept, my ideas about space exploration are very idealistic. The pragmatic side of my nature suggests to me that we only get good science out of the program in the way that Soz has described, rather despite of the agenda of the Congress and whatever current administration, than because of it.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 11:53 am
setanta
I've already said several times that the money for it is not gonna be found. I too am just daydreaming.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 12:10 pm
Setanta wrote:
Manned missions are never about science.


Once again, you are saying "never" here -- and you are wrong.

Lots of the manned missions that went up were in recognition that humans will eventually go into space -- and the scientists had to find out what the effects of being in space are.

That is reasonable scientific inquiry.

You comment that "manned missions are never about science" is simply wrong.

Deal with that.

Forget about the other nonsense.
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