Stop failing the Iraqis

Saddam wasn't a threat to the rest of the world. That has been proved by the fact that no weapons have been found. That was just a US fairytale made up to give it an excuse to invade a mineral rich nation.

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Why the should the UN become involved. LEt the US pay for the damage they caused. They're the ones who blew the country up.

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Debate?
This constant Right wing crap is getting tedious, so this will be my last response to whoever this federal right wingding is.

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Well this certainly won't be my last response -- but I do agree that Fedral, who often puts out some interesting and reasonable stuff -- has been putting out a bunch of crap lately.

The United Nations is doing the best it can in a very, very difficult world.

No...it is not going to get its way all the time -- and no, it will not always do the right thing...but it is the last, best hope for humanity. And if the goddam conservatives of this country would just stop tying to undermine the organization at every turn, perhaps it could improve.

I asked you this question in another thread, Fedral, when you brought up the issue of the UN refusing to get tough with Iraq when it "ignored" a UN resolution:

Should the UN have gotten tougher with Israel -- much, much, much tougher with Israel -- because Israel has ignored dozens of UN resolutions?

What do you suppose would be an adequate response to a country that ignores many resolutions?

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Frank. PLEASE don't hold your breath waiting for an answer to that one.

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Current intelligence suggests that Iraqi WMDs are being hidden in three sites in Syria. I'm going to wait this one out, see what happens.

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Just sounds like an excuse to bomb Syria!

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It may surprise you Frank to know that I agree with you on enforcing U.N. resolutions on Israel.
I think if as long as nations like Israel, Iraq, etc. continue(d) to ignore U.N. resolutions with no consequences , the U.N. will remain powerless at anything except food distribution. (UNICEF does rock)

As to the quality of the articles recently, I decided to try a little experiment.

For each 'Commondreams' type article that I find my eyes and brain assaulted with on this board, I decided to post an even more wacked out 'right wing' article in an attempt to keep things 'fair and balanced' Laughing

As long as a number of you (and you KNOW who you are) continue to support your arguments or just to spout rhetoric that you find in the 'Republicans are the fount of all Evil' type left wing sites like Commondreams, I will seek out, find and post even more and more right wing whacko literature.

Y'all have been warned .... Smile

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Yes, monkeys fling their poop when agitated.

We've been warned. Rolling Eyes

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PDiddie wrote:

Yes, monkeys fling their poop when agitated.

We've been warned.

I see ... when a liberal posts what are obviously biased and unbalanced articles to support his point, they are 'reasonable'.

Yet when someone posts article going the other way to mock them a bit it is 'flinging poo'.

PD, let me send you a dollar so you can buy yourself a sense of humor. Rolling Eyes

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Continue to post as much "more right wing whacko literature" as you want, Fedral. I seldom get to the sites you mentioned -- and I'm always interested in what the periphery of society is thinking.

I'm happy you are consistent in your thinking about "enforcing" UN resolutions. That is, in my opinion, right minded. (No pun intended there!)

What I personally think is wrong-minded -- or at very least, slightly off base -- is the notion that "enforcing" UN resolutions has anything to do with the "force" part of that word.

Pressure should be brought to bear -- as much as possible.

But the moment any institution -- UN, US, UK, whatever -- starts sending in troops and bombs -- they have conceded the high ground.

Essentially they've stopped trying to reason -- and are doing what the "enemy" is doing -- using force and physical coercion to get their way.

Look -- I'm not naive.

You (universal "you) were not going to stop the likes of Hitler or Napoleon with words and reason. And more than likely, you were not going to stop the likes of Saddam Hussein, with those things either.

But Saddam Hussein was contained -- no matter the rhetoric -- and the UN WAS attempting to enforce their resolution.

Fact is, more than likely, their resolution was met in most respects. The WMD simply are not there -- and that was the essence of the UN insistence.

"Regime change" was not part of it -- and properly so. That is not what the UN was set up for -- and if it were, its efforts might better be aimed at regime change in the United States as any place else in the world.

Railing against the UN is probably the lowest point of extreme right wing activity -- and they have lots of very low points in their efforting.

Reconsider your position. Support the institution, Fedral. It is humanity's best hope to make it through this stage of our evolution.

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Frank,
Thanks for your always level headed and intelligent comments (even if I disagree with them sometimes).

I agree that force should always be the last alternative in most scenarios.

Saying that, I also believe that 10 years of sanctions with no end in sight was a bit too much.

I don't believe that a policy of 'contain him till he dies of old age and lets hope his successor is more reasonable' is acceptable. Especially when some countries were shoveling weapons and other items in the back door in violation of sanctions.

When I speak of 'enforcing' U.N. resolutions, it is not just the use of the word 'force'. It means that all United Nations members band together to obey the sanctions and make the sanctioned country comply.

What do you think the result in Israel would be in regards to the Palestinian situation if all countries froze Israeli bank accounts. If all countries did not allow importation of Israeli goods. If all countries refused to sell any more arms and equipment to the Israelis. If all countries refused to discuss any other topics with the Israelis until the Palestinian situation is resolved.

I can guarantee you that the Israelis would come to the table with a solution in a minute.

Imagine the same scenario if one country, say America, chose to ignore the sanctions and supply the Israelis with everything they asked for ... in that scenario, there would be no reason for the Israelis to come to the bargaining table.

In ten years of U.N sanctions, Saddam was supplied by the Russians, Chinese, French, Germans, Syrians and several other countries turned a blind eye to items 'slipping through' to the Iraqis.

In my opinion, had the sanctions been enforced by all countries, we would not be in this current situation.

Thats the kind of enforcement I am speaking of.

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Some of the resolutions regarding Israel have been going a lot longer than 10 years.

As for the statement "10 years of sanctions with no end in sight", I would like to ask. No end to what?
The building of weapons that didn't exist? The death of countless children through the inability to get everything from food to medicines (stopped by the US).

The US went to Iraq to steal it's oil. The most wasteful nation on the face of the earth needs to get it's energy from somewhere! And scum like Bush and his cronies don't care who or how many they have to murder to get it.

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Exactly what contention about what the UN should now be doing in Federal's article do you disagree with?

Isn't the point of the UN to aid nations in need?

Should the poor Iraqi people be held accountable for money borrowed by a ruthless tyrant they never put in power and on many occasions tried to remove at the cost of their own lives?

Should the UN not put aside its differences to help make an unquestionably better world?

I always believed that liberals are compassionate towards the needs of those less fortunate individuals throughout the world?

I'm appalled to find that too often, they put their political alligances ahead of this very altrusitic goal.

Bush DID lie about the reasons we needed to go to war. But now, Irag is both free and in turmoil. Should the Iraqis suffer for the actions of Saddam and Bush, people they never elected?

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Isreal is a sovergn democracy, one thats also filled with educated people. Saddam is a ruthless tyrant that held millions under his rule with torture and fear.

Of course the UN should respond differently in these two cases.

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IN the case of Israel, they don't respond at all.

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Centroles wrote:

Bush DID lie about the reasons we needed to go to war. But now, Irag is both free and in turmoil. Should the Iraqis suffer for the actions of Saddam and Bush, people they never elected?

Excellent point, Centroles, and well stated.

And my answer, as obviously would yours, would be: No, they shouldn't!

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so Frank, I take it that you advocate the UN to do what this article states it should now do.

Forgive Iraq's debts

Get involved in the reconstruction process

Offer Iraq whatever humanitarian aid it can provide

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my answers in bold

Centroles wrote:

Forgive Iraq's debts

yes

Get involved in the reconstruction process

yes

Offer Iraq whatever humanitarian aid it can provide

yes

On the debt relief, though. Third world debt relief has been a huge issue, a big cause for many organisations and, of course, developing countries.

Dozens of developing countries are burdened by enormous debts, ratcheted up by past dictatorships or times of war. Some of these countries have just survived a decade of civil war, are absolutely wrecked. But any IMF or World Bank program that could get them up their feet would have to include pay-backs on those debts to rich countries, which go far beyond their annual budget - leaving little chance to invest in education, health care, et cetera. Additionally, private investors are deterred by a state that is so mired in debt, too.

Yet both European governments and the United States have greatly resisted a far-going debt relief program, opting for more piecemeal solutions, instead. So one question here is, why should it suddenly be all different for Iraq?

Not that I begrudge the Iraqis anything: debt relief is good, period. But of all the war-wrecked countries with big debts, Iraq is actually one of the ones best-placed to get out of the hole by itself - what, with all its natural resources. So why should France, Russia, whoever, suddenly rush to give money (because that, in the end, is what debt relief is) to this country?

Iraq is the Bush government's political project; success of the project will guarantee a faithful US ally in a strategic place. Mozambique doesn't have such advantages. Thats why in this case, Bush is suddenly all for across-the-board debt relief. But why that suddenly makes it a moral imperative for the other countries, too, is not quite clear to me.

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Stop failing the Iraqis

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