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Should the US be a watchdog of world affairs?

 
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2004 10:33 pm
i currently reside in the US, so you may have a point in saying that i'm biased.

but in my defense, i was born, grew up and spend over half my life living in India. it's not as if i am out of touch with the rest of the world.

in retrospect, "the" was a poor choice of words. i have thus edited my post as needed.

what i do believe and what i believe most people including those living outside the US agree that the US should NOT retreat to isolationism in response to the fiasco over Iraq (primarily the backlash it recieved from the rest of the world and much of the US itself).

Some of you I believe give the UN too much credit. It has on more than one occasion failed to act against ruthless unpopular regimes that murder innocent people and treat people like objects that can be abused as desired. Bosnia is merely one example, Afganistan is another, there are still multiple such regimes in existance in the world even today. Do any of you challenge our intervention in Yugoslavia?

In such cases, the UN has almost consistently failed to act. The US isn't perfect on this either. It too has failed to act against certain regimes. But I fear this will only worsen if the US retreats to isolationism. And I sincerely wish that for the sake of the world, it doesn't do so.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2004 11:25 pm
Then UN Charter was written 50 plus years ago----for a world far different from the one of today. I would support the UN but only if the Charter was revised to reflect the requirements of today's world.

I just learned today that the UN has been working for 10 years to form a concensus on the meaning of terrorism.
Is this an organization that can be trusted with anything more serious than distribution of food and medicine?

Centroles

I think you are reflecting the concerns and desires of all those in the world who have given serious thought to the problems confronting the US and the global community. There are many who voice only criticism of the US and place all their trust in a dysfunctional UN------this makes the world a very dangerous place.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2004 11:27 pm
Quote:
Is this an organization that can be trusted with anything more serious than distribution of food and medicine?

To sane people, the distribution of food and medicine is far more important than killing people.
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Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 12:03 am
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
Is this an organization that can be trusted with anything more serious than distribution of food and medicine?

To sane people, the distribution of food and medicine is far more important than killing people.


Frankly, I have heard far too many reports of how the aforementioned regimes intercepted these food and medicine distribution networks in order to sell them for profit to it's richer residents to even trust the UN with this task.

As the adage goes, give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

The oppressive regimes of which I speak subjugate their constituents to environments that make it impossible for them to become self sufficent and improve their conditions.

The trend is that the US is once again moving towards isolationism. If it instead invested a little more into Iraq and Afganistan, it could set in place the infrastructure to give these nations productive, self sufficent economies that ensure they'll never fall back under the control of terrorists.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 10:12 am
perception wrote:
Then UN Charter was written 50 plus years ago----for a world far different from the one of today. I would support the UN but only if the Charter was revised to reflect the requirements of today's world.


Thanks for that. Wishing for improvement is one thing but much of the opposition to the UN seems to be of the type that wishes there were no global body altogether (leaving the most powerful nation to it's whim).

Differentiating your criticism of the UN helps.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 10:13 am
Centroles wrote:

Frankly, I have heard far too many reports of how the aforementioned regimes intercepted these food and medicine distribution networks in order to sell them for profit to it's richer residents to even trust the UN with this task.


This often happens with ANY aid. US aid has often gone the same route.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 11:16 am
Centroles wrote:
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
Is this an organization that can be trusted with anything more serious than distribution of food and medicine?

To sane people, the distribution of food and medicine is far more important than killing people.


Frankly, I have heard far too many reports of how the aforementioned regimes intercepted these food and medicine distribution networks in order to sell them for profit to it's richer residents to even trust the UN with this task.

As the adage goes, give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

The oppressive regimes of which I speak subjugate their constituents to environments that make it impossible for them to become self sufficent and improve their conditions.


Well said and thanks for voicing that observation----it is a valid one and often ignored by those myopic fanatics who label any action by the US as genocidal and imperialistic while at the same time trying to "hoodwink" the unknowing into thinking that the actions of the UN are altruistic and pure of motive. Reality provides evidence that just the opposite is true----the UN is motivated and controlled by the corrupt and narrowly defined self interests of each of the members. Perhaps a STRONG leader would provide more efficient opperation of the UN but the idealistic, toothless Charter prevents a weak leader from accomplishing his mission. Kofi Annan is a charming diplomat but I have seen no other qualities worth mentioning.

Centroles wrote:
The trend is that the US is once again moving towards isolationism. If it instead invested a little more into Iraq and Afganistan, it could set in place the infrastructure to give these nations productive, self sufficent economies that ensure they'll never fall back under the control of terrorists.


What is the basis for your concern that the US is retreating toward isolationism. What ever the faults of the current administration, it is above all else pragmatic and our pragmatic efforts should lead to the conclusion that the trend is just the opposite of what you suggest. It is for pragmatic reasons that the US is becoming MORE, not less, involved in global affairs.
World events have forced the US into taking unilateral actions. We would have much preferred to be involved in multilateral actions for many reasons which, if not already evident, will become clear in the near future.
This statement is only valid in the event Bush and company are allowed to continue their pro-active efforts to stagilize the world and especially the Middle East. If a fool such as Howard Dean is elected then all this good work and the lives lost will be for naught. I only need point to the administration of Jimmy Carter to prove my point. He did not have the political will to deal with Iran for example. The moment Reagon was elected----the hostages were released. Terrorists, oppressive dictators and our other enemies around the world are adept at drawing conclusions about the WILL of our presidents. Re: Clinton----bin Laden came to power and spread his poisonous network around the globe while Clinton was in power. What did he do----wrung his hands, gnashed his teeth and fired off about a Billion dollars worth of cruise missiles at rocks in Afghanistan while he was in a closet with Monica all the while talking to a Senator on the phone. But yet has the gall to acuse Bush of allowing Bin Laden to prosper and grow his organization-----such is the sorry state of politics in this country.
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Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 12:18 pm
I am referring to the backlash that the Bush administration has recieved over Iraq both worldwide and domestically. I am referring to the fact that as a response to this backlash, the US is pulling more and more troops out of Afganistan, has promied to pull all troops out of Iraq by July, and will probably be very hesistant to undertake any peacekeeping mission (unless it is directly linked to terrorism) in the future.

I would never want to see the UN disappear. It serves several vital roles. I am simply arguing that currently it is too weak to entrust on it all international responsibilities.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:13 pm
Centroles wrote:
I am referring to the backlash that the Bush administration has recieved over Iraq both worldwide and domestically. I am referring to the fact that as a response to this backlash, the US is pulling more and more troops out of Afganistan, has promied to pull all troops out of Iraq by July, and will probably be very hesistant to undertake any peacekeeping mission (unless it is directly linked to terrorism) in the future.

I would never want to see the UN disappear. It serves several vital roles. I am simply arguing that currently it is too weak to entrust on it all international responsibilities.


We never had many troops in Afghanistan-----what are there assist the Afghans in training and there are some special forces units (small units) there conducting raids on suspected Taliban camps. Those numbers will probably stay the same.

You are flat wrong about withdrawing troops from Iraq in July. We will have at least 100,000 (my guess strictly) troops in Iraq for at least 2 years---maybe longer. What you are hearing is strictly political speculation from sources with dubious agendas. What I have just said is subject to drastic revision if Bush is not re-elected as I said earlier.

You might want to read the UN charter just for information ----if you haven't already. You can pull it up on Google very quickly----it is a real eye-opener and you will quickly understand why it is dysfunctional and very nearly irrelevant in it's present form.
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Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 02:54 am
Bush has on more than one occasion stated that he intends to retreat from the role of invaders of Iraq and retreat many troops and instead perhaps remain there as a minor presence should the need arise by next July.

But perhaps that was a bad example. If indeed, we can build up Iraq's infrastructure by July, retreating troops would be the right move.

Somehow though, I fear that politicians learned a very hard lesson over Iraq. The world and the many people in US do not respond well to US intervening in foreign nations. They only want the US involved when our national security is directly threatened or when the UN initiates the process. Missions like those in Bosnia and Yugoslavia without UN support will in the future rekindle a similar response. And this is isolationism.
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gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 07:42 am
As an australian I am reading this and thinking "who on earth do these guys think they are". It is preposterous to even consider that one country ought act as watchdog for the world. Do they really think we deserve to be a pawn in their domestic politics? Do they think we should submit to a world view emanating from Texas or Plains Georgia? Do they think that we ought be bullied by a man elected in an electronic freak show by 25% of 4% of the earth's population? Do they think that possession of the world's largest arsenal of WMD is license to rule the world? What are they - a nation of jumped up Trotskyites? I ask myself has this nation shown good judgement in the past? Names such as Nixon, Ford, Bush, Carter, Kissinger and Reagan , do these fill me with confidence that the US has leaders that I will trust and welcome? Not bloody likely! Then I think of incidents and campaigns. Vietnamn, Nicuaragua, Chile, Cambodia, Laos El Salvador - did it act wisely, moderately and fairly? No bloody way! Then I consider the diplomatic efforts with Iran, Iraq, Palestine,Israel, China, Cuba - and then I think "the US confuses ultimatums with diplomacy , treachery with persuasion and might as right". Is this who I want to lead my world? No bloody way!

What more do they want? The UN was created according to their plan.

Come on guys get a grip or perhaps, better leave it alone.

Frank, can you divine how I vote from that lot.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 08:13 am
gozmo wrote:
Frank, can you divine how I vote from that lot.


Thank you Gozmo. Very well said!

That is what I expected from damn near everyone out there.

And for those non-Americans who don't think as Gozmo expressed -- you really ought to re-think your positions.

Don't trust us to do the right thing! Ultimately, we will always do what we perceive to be best for us -- and to hell with you. And some of our leaders, as Gozmo noted, are not even that nice.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:48 am
Gozmo

I personally object to criticism from anyone in Australia and especially from anyone in Adelaide. You want to live in luxury and isolation on your island continent and throw rocks at the US. Perhaps if you let a few more of the worlds refugees into your paradise...............You're like Frank-----you want the best of everything but you bitch like hell at "potholes" in the road then have the audacity to throw rocks at the crew trying to fix the potholes.

Fortunately your leaders have always chosen to share responsibility with the rest of the civilized world when action was required.

It's OK gozmo----take another sip on that cool one, put on some more sunscreen and let the US deal with the scum of the world. You could at least start raising larger families so eventually you could carry a more substantial share of the worlds burden. Something more than a "sixpack" would help.
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gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:59 am
Percy, that's pathetic.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 11:03 am
Gozmo, that's really Percy.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 12:12 pm
At the least, it made me go read the history of Adelaide...very interesting and I can see Perceptions point now...
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 12:19 pm
gozmo wrote:
Percy, that's pathetic.


Bit of a weak response ------I guess only the "crocs" have balls-----or does Gozmo translate into "she" in Aussie speak?
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Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 07:10 am
can we talk about the issues here
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