2
   

Laden Shot with WHAT???

 
 
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2011 05:37 pm
@farmerman,
Never mind what he did to anyone else - his own firstborn son fled in horror after he discovered Osama murdering his 2 young puppies to test a poison gas:
Quote:
...But Omar was becoming increasingly disillusioned with his father's obsession with Jihad. Those views were compounded by the discovery, aged 17, that bin Laden's soldiers were using his pet puppies to test out chemical and biological weapons at the Kandahar training camps.

He recalls: 'Several of the new soldiers, young men who had been born without sensitivity, enjoyed describing the death throes of those cute little animals. They insisted on telling me of their trembling terror, sitting tied in a cage, suffering throughout the ordeal.


Anyone who would do that to puppies deserved to be shot on sight; anyway, he always said he hoped to die in a hail of bullets so the Seals did him a favor.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2011 05:39 pm
@oralloy,
Agree. I have a .38 S&W J Frame that is incredibly accurate. Not so big on MV.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2011 02:13 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
To get high rifle velocities, only a long barrel is long enough.
Not true..it is far more engineered than that....the bullet expends into the rifling, the number of turns it has to go through slows it down, it gets hot, it depends on the burn rate of the gunpowder, the rear surface area of the bullet, how far along the cocking mechanism takes its gas off, the bleed of excess gases near or a part of the cocking mechanism...just for starters .

Quote:
The difference between "a .223 round going fast enough to explode" and "a .223 round not going fast enough to explode" is substantial.
But all fit within the manufacturers criteria for going fast enough . A longer barrel will not make a difference .
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2011 04:25 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
To get high rifle velocities, only a long barrel is long enough.


Not true..


How come no short-barreled weapon produces the same high velocities produced by long rifle barrels?



Ionus wrote:
it is far more engineered than that....the bullet expends into the rifling, the number of turns it has to go through slows it down, it gets hot, it depends on the burn rate of the gunpowder, the rear surface area of the bullet, how far along the cocking mechanism takes its gas off, the bleed of excess gases near or a part of the cocking mechanism...just for starters.


None of that changes the fact that centerfire rifles attain their higher velocities by having slow-burning powder behind the bullet while it travels down a long barrel.



Ionus wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
The difference between "a .223 round going fast enough to explode" and "a .223 round not going fast enough to explode" is substantial.


But all fit within the manufacturers criteria for going fast enough.


What criteria is this?

In any case, if a round of M855 is not going fast enough to explode, the having the manufacturer satisfied "that it meets their criteria" is no substitute for having it explode inside the bad guy.



Ionus wrote:
A longer barrel will not make a difference.


That is incorrect. The huge velocity increase attainable with a longer barrel counts as a difference.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2011 04:49 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
How come no short-barreled weapon produces the same high velocities produced by long rifle barrels?
You have examples ?

Quote:
None of that changes the fact that centerfire rifles attain their higher velocities by having slow-burning powder behind the bullet while it travels down a long barrel.
Really ?? So things like .......how far along the cocking mechanism takes its gas off, the bleed of excess gases near or as a part of the cocking mechanism......dont change the speed of the bullet, it is only the barrel length that changes the speed ? Accelerating the bullet is done by expanding burning gases, once past the bleed off point, there is no acceleration . The rest of the barrel is for accuracy only .
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2011 06:49 pm
@Ionus,
Well, yes. Too long a barrel will finally slow it down to internal friction. Are you talking about a 90 inch long barrel? And sure, some powers are made for short barrels. .25 ACP pocket pistol uses a cartridge designed exclusively for extremely small pocket pistols. In spite of published ballistics it has much better energy and velocity that the .22 in essentially the same gun. We're not talking about 2" or 90" barrels.

If you don't want to allow a little generalization, quit talking about taking gas off for the cocking mechanism. This sounds much like the gas port in a military weapon and doesn't apply with bolt action, falling block, or blowback designs.

In general, longer barrels give higher velocities. We can make up exceptions all day long.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 May, 2011 07:40 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
How come no short-barreled weapon produces the same high velocities produced by long rifle barrels?


You have examples ?


Of short-barreled guns that produce the same velocity as a long barreled rifle?

Not likely that such a gun exists.




Ionus wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
None of that changes the fact that centerfire rifles attain their higher velocities by having slow-burning powder behind the bullet while it travels down a long barrel.


Really ??


Really.



Ionus wrote:
So things like .......how far along the cocking mechanism takes its gas off, the bleed of excess gases near or as a part of the cocking mechanism......dont change the speed of the bullet, it is only the barrel length that changes the speed ?


Those others may have an impact on speed, but they won't make the bullet attain centerfire rifle velocities the way slow-burning powder in a long barrel will.



Ionus wrote:
Accelerating the bullet is done by expanding burning gases, once past the bleed off point, there is no acceleration . The rest of the barrel is for accuracy only .


With the slow burning powder of a centerfire rifle, how far along is the point where there is no more acceleration?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 03:11 am
@roger,
Quote:
quit talking about taking gas off for the cocking mechanism.
No . Razz

The whole thread is about military weapons . Yes, if you don't have an automatic cocking mechanism then the longer barrel will give greater velocity....but what does that have to do with this thread ? He wasn't shot with a single shot lever/bolt action weapon.....you are talking about the exceptions, given the preponderance of gas operated weapons .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 03:18 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Of short-barreled guns that produce the same velocity as a long barreled rifle?
No, of the difference in muzzle velocity between that of an M 16 to an M 4 (long barrel versus short barrel).

Quote:
Those others may have an impact on speed
MAY ? Would you say definitely ? Take the FN SLR for example....all gas was bled about half way along the barrel, with some of it used to recock the rifle....but there was no further acceleration of the bullet from that point on .

Quote:
how far along is the point where there is no more acceleration?
See paragraph above...
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 03:29 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
Of short-barreled guns that produce the same velocity as a long barreled rifle?


No, of the difference in muzzle velocity between that of an M 16 to an M 4 (long barrel versus short barrel).


20 inch barrel: 3110 ft/sec
http://www.colt.com/mil/M16_2.asp

14.5 inch barrel: 2900 ft/sec
http://www.colt.com/mil/M4_2.asp

11.5 inch barrel: 2611 ft/sec
http://www.colt.com/mil/M4Com_2.asp




Ionus wrote:
Take the FN SLR for example....all gas was bled about half way along the barrel, with some of it used to recock the rifle....but there was no further acceleration of the bullet from that point on.


Why would it bleed of all the gas instead of just what was required to cycle the action?

Makes a good case for the old HK roller-delayed blowback designs. I knew there was something about them I always liked.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 05:24 pm
@oralloy,
So taking the extreme cases, we have HALF the barrel length and a 17 % drop off in muzzle velocity . Does the 20" length allow the round to accelerate to its maximum velocity ? What barrel length gives the bullet its maximum speed ?


Quote:
Why would it bleed of all the gas instead of just what was required to cycle the action?
I meant to say it bleeds off all the gas that would have continued to accelerate the bullet . By adjusting the opening, you control the amount of gas used to recock and the extra is bled off, thus allowing you to field adjust stoppages due to carbon build up .
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 11:20 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:
Agree. I have a .38 S&W J Frame that is incredibly accurate. Not so big on MV.
Which model ?





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 11:31 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
In some hostage situations, they use low powered weapons so they dont get a bullet going through a bad guy and hitting a good guy...even after a ricochet high powered rounds leave a nasty mark....and people have been wounded by flying bone.....it all depends on whether there are hostages and if the baddies are wearing vests, etc...
BillRM wrote:
I had hear correctly or not that a lot of special forces still prefer the old 1911 colt model A 45 with it nice heavy and slow round for a sidearm.
YES, indeed.
The 1911 has a very, very devoted following.
There is no question about it; (reminds me of Mac users).

I do not share that point of vu.
I have more confidence in revolvers.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 11:35 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
Personally I could care less
what Bin Laden was shot with, but then I guess you got to be into that kind of thing.
How much less
coud u care ??





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2011 11:57 pm
@High Seas,

OmSigDAVID wrote:


Does anyone know the armament
of the CIA or the Seals who shot Laden ??
Laden was allegedly firing "an automatic weapon" presumably an AK 47.

I heard that he allegedly was shot 2ice
in the left eye; that might suggest the probability
of a .223 caliber M-16 or a 9mm MP5 submachinegun. I dunno.

Has anyone heard ?





David
High Seas wrote:
Admiral Dennis Blair (formerly DNI) said it was a 7.62 mm bullet. There was a large exit wound on the back of Bin Laden's skull - well, there would be.
YES, indeed.
7.62mm reminds me of M14s or AK 47s (tho I don 't believe that the SEALS used those).

I don 't believe that Laden 's brain
woud restrain the slug from overpenetrating.





David
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 12:15 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Airweight Chief's Special. I have the same basic frame in all steel with what they call a 3" square bbl. It isn't anywhere close to square, but the heavy barrel does improve balance. It is equally accurate.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 04:20 am
@roger,
roger wrote:
Airweight Chief's Special. I have the same basic frame in all steel with what they call a 3" square bbl.
It isn't anywhere close to square, but the heavy barrel does improve balance. It is equally accurate.
How do u have them loaded ?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 01:31 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Hydroshocks. No longer sure what brand puts them out presently.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 01:42 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:
Hydroshocks. No longer sure what brand puts them out presently.
R thay better than hollowpoints ?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 02:40 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Generally. They have a post molded into the hollowpoint which pretty well insures expansion, yet is a light enough load to be safe in the aluminum framed airweight chief. There is no rounding of the bullet nose, by the way, giving them a profile similiar to a target type wadcutter load.

 

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