You can lead a kid to homework but you can't make them think.

Yes. Really. I don't like to admit it but it's true.

I'm fairly strict and Mr. B is really strict but that doesn't stop the yelling. He's furious and out of control and he aims to hurt. And he does.

You are hundreds of leagues more into this than I was. I'll be quiet but keep reading. I'm aware I was the alternative understanding adult - re talking, a kind of valve.
I've no idea what you should do next.
J

I realize that kids need to let of steam, but they also need to learn to channel
their anger. What do you do, boomer, when he yells? Do you leave the room
or try to calm him down?

I try to calm him down and if I can't (which is almost always) I leave the room until he can calm himself down (which can take a while). I usually stay nearby, within easy earshot, but don't don't respond.

Which I hate myself for because I know about his troubles and I know how awful my disengaging is for him.

But honestly self protection kicks in. It has to.

I've told Mr. B that this must be what abused women go through: you love them so you find ways to cope. It kills me.

I ******* HATE homework. I wish teachers knew what the hell it can do to a family.

You're doing all the right things, boomer.
I agree, homework is far too excessive in elementary school, and what I hated the most were those darn reading logs. Jane always has read a lot of books but she refused to write them down in a log - gawd knows why, but it always was an issue.

Maybe a change of scenery - like shewolf does - would help. Could you
go into a nearby outdoor cafe and have Mo do some of the homework there?
Or the library? In our local library are tons of kids who do their homework together....they have fun together, but they also finish their work.

I can't remember - does Mo have a diagnosed learning disability?
3 hours of homework a night sounds like an awful lot for a nine year old (is that how old he is?), even one who doesn't have a learning disability.
And if that child has a reading or written language disability or dyscalculia, it sounds UNBEARABLE - from the child's standpoint.

I guess I just look at it totally differently. If I had a child who had experienced the trauma Mo has and was expressing his unhappiness and stress to the point he is - homework would be the least of my worries.
And if something like baseball gives him pleasure and a release from the every day stress of his life - that's the LAST thing I would take away from him.

I mean does Mo want to be a doctor or something that will call for him to have an impeccable academic record?
What if he wants to be a mechanic? Or a hairdresser? Is that alright?

Maybe it's because I was a teacher and I did it all day, but if either one of my kids had homework, it was their deal. If they asked me for help, I was more than happy to help them. But if they didn't, I figured they had it under control. And if it turns out they were skiving, well yeah, there's those consequence, aren't there? And they owned them - right from the beginning.
I'm dead serious.
But I wouldn't take outdoor exercise and exertion from them. That's something they needed as much, if not more than homework. I mean they were sitting inside at a desk all day - I'm gonna extend THAT to the detriment of their physical well-being and add to their unhappiness and frustration? Hell no!

I'd be more upset if my child yelled at me than if they didn't do their homework. Now that IS something I wouldn't stand for.

Because at the end of the day, a happy, well-adjusted, and yes, polite and respectful child was more important to me than a straight-A student.
Some kids just can't do school. It doesn't make them bad kids.

I was just working with a guy yesterday - 28 years old and we were doing maths and he could tell me every single answer verbally- but wouldn't even pick up the pencil to write them down.
I've been working with him for a number of months and we know each other well and have a mutual respect and rapport so I said, 'Pick up the pencil and write it down! You KNOW this!'
He's getting ready to take the exam and I wanted to see him DO it as he'd have to do it in the exam.
He wouldn't.
And then it occurred to me and I said, 'Do you have a written language disability? Because if you do, I can be your reader and scribe since this is a math's exam.'
He said, 'No - I have a low IQ.'
I was like, 'That's bull - you do not.'
He said, 'I have been tested - I have the paper - I do have a low IQ.'
I said, 'Chrissy (they call men that over here if their name is Christopher) - you just figured out that line of sums in your head faster than I could - you do NOT have a low IQ- maybe on paper - but not in reality.'
But that's what he's been told - it's what he believes - it's why he quit school - it's probably why he is where he is right now.

I don't know - I just believe in the whole heirarchy of needs theory and academic achievement is further up the pyramid and less important than overall self-actualization and over-all happiness.
There has to be a balance.

i would not stand for that homework load....I would make a deal, you and I will do half of it together, if you will do the other half without complaint. Make that a somewhat standard deal. Tell him that you think the school is being unfair, but instead of fighting the school you two will work together to give them what they want and have it be your secret. Part of the deal has to be that he does his best on tests so that the school does not find out.

Also, as Jane said, I would never stand for the temper either. One way or another that would stop PDQ.....and I would not rule out corporal punishment in getting it done.

It doesn't have to be a secret. Tell the teacher, 'Look - he can't sit there for three hours on top of school. This is causing HUGE problems in our house and making him very stressed and unhappy. How about if he does what he can, or tells me the answers he knows and I write them down and I show him how to do what he doesn't know?'

Any teacher worth her salt knows that the child will be learning just by sitting there and watching it being done- even by someone else.

Because if you make it 'your secret' Hawkeye - you're teaching the child to be a liar - and to be dishonest by presenting someone else's work as his.
Yeah - that's a really good homework lesson.

And corporal punishment - hitting a child who is already evidencing such frustration and rage - is a recipe for disaster.

That's the absolute LAST thing - after taking his outlet for physical exertion and release - that should be done to a child such as this.

You're out of your mind advocating hitting someone who is already so frustrated and obviously asking for help.

We all lie in life, civilization would break down without lies, so that is not a deal breaker, but this is a close call for me. What I taught my kids is "dont you ever lie to me", but that once in awhile telling a lie is the right thing to do.

Agreed, but not having it on the table as an option, and the kid knowing this, makes solving the problem much more difficult. AS I mentioned once in another thread, three kids and I spanked a total of about 20 times, and used the belt once, that was all that was required.
No, if my kid is going to go head to head with me in stubborn or violence then I am going to win every single time. This is often the fastest, and sometimes only way, to get this behavour to stop. Communication, co-operation, negotiation all come first and will work almost every time to solve conflicts, but if my kid demands a battle then they shall have it, and they WILL loose. Every. Single. Time.

Well, it all depends on the child doesn't it?

If you have a child who has experienced abandonment at some point in his or her life, they have totally different issues and responses to stimuli than a child who hasn't.
There will always be an insecurity there that is NOT there in children who have never experienced or known that they were 'abandoned' or given up by someone in his or her life.

Part of this behavior may be testing. Maybe it is to see exactly how far he can go with his disobedience and hurtful words before he will be abandoned again.
So the adult in the situation has to respond in such a way that the child learns that they will never abandon them- no matter how much misbehavior they exhibit.

And honestly - if my child needed to take a year OFF from school to preserve his or her mental health - so what? If they fail fourth grade - so WHAT- in the long run...because if you don't get this **** straightened out when they're eight or nine - you'll be dealing with HUGE problems when they're sixteen or seventeen, and on into adulthood.

School is not the be-all and end-all of a child's existence. For someone like Mo who has a history that is confusing and hurtful, there are other issues that are more important.

I adopted my daughter when she was four and a half months old. She never knew her birth family - and she's been in a secure family since then. But I can SEE her responses to things are different, VERY different from my son's, who is our biological child.

I would never hit a child who was already in pain. And this defiance, given his history, is probably a manifestation of his inner pain, confusion and frustration.
You cannot disregard what he has gone through.

And sometimes enforcing one's will on someone who already feels totally out of control is exactly the WRONG thing to do.

see.. and this is where i step off the follow the rules parenting ideas and want to absolutely hit the roof.

2 HOURS??? after the poor kid just spent almost 8 being stuffed in a chair????
and teachers , schools and even parents have to wonder WHY kids have such a hard time with this?

I really really really really think school is started TOO young for kids.
I thin it needs to be about 1.2 the work load until about high school age. Then cram it to them when they have a little more control over their bodies.
Little kids are NOT made to sit still like that for hours and hours and hours.

No homework in my house is not a big deal either. Not in any way. It is not a do or die situation. But by the end of the week she does have to have a certain amount turned in so we work on it in bits and pieces. With her school , we are able to do such. I know that isnt a norm sadly.


I just gotta shake my head.
2 hours a day.... for a LITTLE child.... gracious that almost makes me angry.

Im sorry hawk, I KNOW your point was different with your statement and that you said a lot more, but I am clipping this sentence because , as i said in my earlier post... bean and I do not do homework every day.
And I am twisting your words to my idea.. and that is that it may be worth it to go TO the teacher with this and...............strike a deal.

Just grazing over it........little bean is being tested for a few things that Mo has. I get the frustration. I get the lack of attention and I see the major issue with it.
I went to her teacher and said " this is how we have to do it"...PERIOD.
and i struck a deal - " we do half at home.. and you give full credit so long as the lesson is learned even if it doesnt take a whole week practice...

so far.. REALLY working..

Yes, I dont spend much time on the relationship threads any more, but I have said over and over again the first thing is to know who you are and what you want, and the second is to know your mate. Works pretty much the same with your kid. It is your responsibility to know your kid well enough to know what will work with them, and while you will not be right every time you better be right most of the time.

Absolutely, but is said that it has to be on the table.....it is very comforting to the kid to know that you as their parent are all in, that you will do what ever is required to see to their best interests, even if the kid does not like what is going down this particular time. Kids need structure and boundries, and we parents need to provide them. Kids also need to run their own lives as much as they can. Yin and yang, it is the parents job to know which one is called for at that particular moment.

We lost the battle. and it wasnt anything anywhere near 2 hours a night. maybe 2 hours a week if that.

He just wouldnt do homework no matter what the consequences and dissolved ino tears if we forced the issue. We encoraged, we supported, we worked with him and showed him. We walked away. We pointed out the consequences. We let the consequences happen. no team practice. no computer. no television. no evening meal. He would just shrug.

He was tossed off the team. He sneaked the computer when we wern't home. When we were he would go to a friends house and use theirs.
The homework still didnt get done.

I wanted a child psycologist when he was 10 but mum thought that if she loved him enough (more) and support and encorage him he would be ok. I suspec she didnt want to admit that he had a problem that we couldnt deal with.


His teachers at high school gave up eventually, not just on homework but on him as well. They tried everything. They gave him options. What do you want to do? a School based apprenticship - paid work in the computer lab is what he chose. He wouldnt do the book work or fill in his time sheet.
We reminded him and encoraged him. He wouldnt do it.
"I'm all stessed out" he'd say. He didnt get paid. eventually they dropped him.
The school organised Work experience with a local trades person to get him out of the school one or two days a week. He didnt go.


School started to be a hit and miss affair (truancy) when he was 15 and by 16 he just stopped going altogehter and lied to us about it. When we asked what he'd done at school that day he made things up. We'd sit him down and tell him all the bad things that would happen. He'd agree to go to school then two days later not go again.

We drove him to school and he'd wait till we were gone and just walk out. We showed him some of the towns hopeless cases who had never held a job. he woud agree that he didnt want to end up like them and yes he should go to school.... then didnt.

There were jobs that he said he would like to do but he wouldnt call for an interview. jobs klike welding and plumbing. When i asked him why he said
I.... cant.
We helped him with his resume, we practiced interviews but he wouldnt call for an interview. we encoraged supported cajoled pointe to consequences...

"I ....just....cant."

I had a factory job and they needed an unskilled fill in person. i took him to work with me. The next day he wouldnt get out of bed in time to leave.
We sat him down and said its ok he doesnt have to do do that just let me know but did he want to go again. "Yes" he said he'd be there for the next shift and sorry he let me down. The next day he got up made his lunch then ran away, Was no where to be found when it was time to leave.



He now has no job (works part time in a ski hire shop over winter) and refuses educate himeself. We have paid for Adult courses that he said he wanted to do. He went to once and never again.

He smashed his car at 19 driving two 15 year old girls to another town and as a result was charged with dangerouse driving and had to attend a court ordered driving course. The day before the course he asked to borrow my car to attend the course. I told him he could if he completed one unit of the TAFE course he was currnetly doing.
He hadn't done any of it prior. He didnt do any course work so he didnt get my car.
While we were overseas I told him he could use my car to attend TAFE but only to TAFE and from TAFE. He didnt go to TAFE and went someplace else. Someone stole parts off my car.
He said he'd replace the parts... but didnt

6 months ago I got tired of him leaning on us for everything and told him to pack his stuff and go.
He's a really nice kid, everyone likes him but he's got no hope of any kind of a stable future.

I honestly dont care anymore.

my mother?

did similar with me. For all those reasons.. School bored me so bad I could not do it. i was able to test out of so much it didnt matter any more.

for 'me' I got it. I got the math, i got the science, I got english... I didnt need repetition to retain it. I knew it and i was done. but i was unable to explain that to anyone.
that boredom lasted a LONG time.. but once I got over it, i was able to take my life back. ..

maybe that will happen for your son too.

Right and that's exactly what I'm saying- that the child's sense of security and belief in self which will lead to health and happiness is more important than homework.

I don't know - I guess I just see the end result of people being forced into roles they cannot fulfill from childhood on.
It's like there's one path that somehow EVERYONE has to stay on for the same amount of time and end up at the finish line having achieved the same thing at the same time.
It's not reasonable to expect. And it makes for a whole hell of a lot of unhappy kids who grow into very unhappy adults.

You know - from what I've seen in life - if my kid grows up to be self-supporting and happy with no substance abuse issues and without the need or desire to hurt others - I'm happy - job done.

Seriously - that's what I've learned from working where I work and seeing what I see.

He still needs to be able to do what he's told. He still needs to be able to work with numbers and words and write them down. mostly he will hav to do this after he's completed a days work in the workshop.

I have no answers. I failed miserably.

What I would say is that the less you expect the less you get.

He didnt. He can read and write but would be much better at it if he'd practiced.
He can barely add up or multiply. science? whats that?

Keep in mind that you had brain chemistry issues that you now realize needed professional assistance. Dadpad's kid most likely does as well, and we know that Mo's school says that he does as well but last I heard Boom was resisting the diagnosis.

Parents have to know when they are in over their heads, when it is time to call in the pros. Thankfully I only had to do that once, for a learning disability with one of my kids, which was gone by third grade.

Bullshit!
He just didnt want to to what he was told.