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military action against Libya

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 May, 2011 09:05 pm
@Fido,
That's really the sad part; revolutionaries want change, but they have nothing that will guarantee what they seek is what they will get in the end.

They're willing to die for change, but the next step in their plans are missing.

That's going to be a big hurdle if and when they get rid of Gaddafi.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 01:17 am
@cicerone imposter,
To bring your point closer to home, consider the cousins Sam and John Adams.

Sam was a revolutionary. He was great at overthrowing, but not so great at rebuilding.

His cousin John, on the other hand...

We need both, because we will seldom get them within the same single person.

The potential dissapointment of the so-called "Arab Spring," is just this: Taking something down doesn't assure it will be rebuilt according to the revolutionaries ideals or according to what is just simply right.

I'm not ready to jump on a band-wagon of anti-Muslim Brotherhood critics as respects Egypt, but there is reason to be concerned.

There are certainly plenty of signs that suggest that the MB will not be able to bide their time and their pledges to not become prominently involved with the rebuilding of the Egyptian government are hollow...at best.

When the time comes for elections in Egypt, there will be a MB candidate...even though they said, during the upheaval, that they would not field one.

They have a very good understanding of the Western Liberal audience to which they are willing to play.

We all rejoice when the oppressed rise up against their oppressors, but only the most romantic of us assume that the oppressed will, perforce, deliver a government significantly better that what they defeated.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 09:19 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

That's really the sad part; revolutionaries want change, but they have nothing that will guarantee what they seek is what they will get in the end.

They're willing to die for change, but the next step in their plans are missing.

That's going to be a big hurdle if and when they get rid of Gaddafi.
It is like Vietnam using Chinese help to get rid of the French and then having to deal with the Chinese who have been traditional enemies... Europe has been no friend to North Africa, and we have been no friend to Lybia... If the so called revolutionaries do gain power, they will not hold it without our help... I don't think they will get that far before being used up and pushed aside for more of the same kind of crap in our name...
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 01:12 pm
Has anyone entertained the thought that Gadhafi might have support of the majority of Libyans? The rebels might be just the minority and remnants of the former ruler of Libya. Besides Benghazi is next to Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood are. If Gadhafi is gone but the majority of Libyans still resist the rebels then you are in trouble. America would be stuck. I mentioned that Gadhafi is enthrenched and would be difficult to remove and if he has the majority of Libyans behind him then there is real trouble. NATO action is actually in the act of invasion and a troublemaker exceeding the UN approval.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 02:09 pm
@talk72000,
talk, Can you provide the source from which you have drawn the opinion that perhaps the majority of Libyans support Gaddafi?
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 02:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That is what I want to know. Has anyone conducted a poll? I mentioned if anyone entertained the idea that Gadhafi MAY have support form the majority of Libyans NOT that that he actually has but the possibility as I do not know. He couldn't suvive that long if he had little support. The citizens of Tripoli could possibly comprise the majority of Libyans.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 02:16 pm
@talk72000,
The only reason he has "support," is that many in government, especially the military, is beholding to him and nobody else. 40 years of habit dies hard, because their thinking pattern has been established long ago.

Very few are able to think for themselves, and change sides. That takes more than guts, because they do so at their own peril.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 07:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Did you read in North Korea where people love the guy because they have been brainwashed? It is probably the same phenomenon in Libya. They may be attached to him just as Christians are attached to Jesus as they have been since childhood looked upon him as the Father of the nation. You snatch something thay they have known since childhood and you may get a violent reaction, rightly or wrongly.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 08:05 pm
Sully has a disturbing column about the ongoing brutality in Syria...

What is happening in Syria has become morally intolerable even under the standards of the Middle East

Quote:
I simply do not know how the brutal torture of children can be surpassed as an example of pure evil. What is happening in Syria has become morally intolerable even under the standards of the Middle East. You can view the profoundly disturbing video of the corpse of a 13 year-old boy delivered back to his parents by the Syrian security forces here. I warn you. The Dish publishes many graphic images, but the sheer effect of sadism on this child's body is too much for public display.

The boy, Hamza al-Khateeb, was arrested on April 29 and returned to his family around a month later. This is a regime that actually wants to broadcast its atrocities to intimidate its people:


Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 08:23 pm
Bad link on above post.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/the-evil-in-damascus.html
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 11:50 pm
@talk72000,
talk72000 wrote:

Has anyone entertained the thought that Gadhafi might have support of the majority of Libyans? The rebels might be just the minority and remnants of the former ruler of Libya....


Who cares ? Given the successes the rebels have achieved so far it appears likely that Gadaffi is opposed by at least a large number of Lybians. He has certainly been a large pain in the ass to us over the past 40 plus years and is known to have orchestrated the killing of many Americans. That is enough reason for us to take some pleasure in his passing and even to nudge the process along a bit.

I don't think he or Lybia is worth any serious effort on our part though, It is entirely appropriate that our European "friends" for once take some responsible action on their own to clean up some of the historical messes they have created. I think the example of an indifferent America might do them some good.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 12:26 am
@talk72000,
It's true that the citizens of countries become accustomed to their leadership as we have seen in Iraq, but whether they are in support of their leadership is questionable. When they have no voice in what they want, they become lackadaisical, and accept their condition of life as normal. Not healthy, but natural under the circumstances.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 12:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
True. Look at whats happening in the U.S. of A.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 11:23 am
@Irishk,
Quote:
I simply do not know how the brutal torture of children can be surpassed as an example of pure evil.


Where was Sully when the Reagan's Contras, the folks who were the equivalent of US founding fathers, were torturing and murdering Nicaraguan children? In fact where was most of the USA?
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 11:35 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Who cares ?


Hmm, same as Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan? Wait till the US is stretched even further. The US economy is becoming a war economy and nobody is buying American big tickets products that can be supplied by others.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 12:37 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
and is known to have orchestrated the killing of many Americans.


Provide proof with sources, Gob.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 12:43 pm
@talk72000,
If he does have support, he one less now.

Quote:
Libya's oil minister has confirmed his defection from Muammar Gaddafi's government, citing the "daily spilling of blood" in the country as reason for his departure.

Shokri Ghanem, head of the National Oil Corporation, said at a news conference in Rome, Italy on Wednesday that he supported the "Libyan youth fighting for a constitutional state", but was still undecided about joining the anti-Gaddafi regime rebels.

"I can't work in this situation so I have left my country and my job to join the choice made by young Libyans to fight for a democratic country," he said at the conference organised by the Libyan ambassador who has also defected, according to ANSA, the Italian news agency.

But Ghanem added that he was not working with the National Transitional Council (NTC) in Benghazi, the main rebel administration in eastern Libya.

Ghanem is one of the most high-profile and senior Libyan officials to have defected after Moussa Koussa, Gaddafi's foreign minister who defected in March.


source

revelette
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 12:47 pm
@Irishk,
Your right it is truly disturbing. It all seems to be too much happening at the same time, evidently though it is change badly needed if those in charge are willing to torture a young boy.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 12:49 pm
@revelette,
You keep on the propaganda. Soon the US will be overstretched. I don't see you volunteering for military duty when the bombing stretched beyond one week. Prefer bossing around babies I guess. The difference in US involvement and native resistance is the native victims will fight with their lives for their soil and country and American youths will not for America's elites' greed.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 12:55 pm
@talk72000,
Quote:
Prefer bossing around babies I guess


There really is no need to be snide, talk2000.
 

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