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Mon 29 Dec, 2003 09:23 am
I was listening to our local talk radio station this morning, which is a part of the University system, and therefor an NPR station. They had one of their "bicentennial minutes" (Ohio became a state in 1803), and then referred to a book by a professor in Ohio, which is subtitled: The History of a People.. This rather bothers me. The population of Ohio comes not just from Ohio, but from all over the union. Certainly it would not be unreasonable to suggest that the majority of the population was born and raised in Ohio, but not the totality of the population. There are for example, a great many natives of New York in Columbus. These are the people most likely to condemn Columbus as a "cow town." In this, they display their ignorance in two ways: it shows that they don't know what a cow town is; it also shows that they don't appreciate the rather rich cultural offerings. In a town of just less than 700,000 inhabitants, there are three permanent theater groups, a symphony orchestra, two chamber orchestras, three choirs, a ballet, an opera company, a Carnegie library (as distinct from the Ohio State University libraries), four universities and two colleges, the School of Art and Design (internationally renowned), an internationally known botanical gardens and conservatory . . . the list is long indeed.
Which lead me to consider the parochialism of New Yorkers and Angelenos. The denizens of New York and Los Angeles often speak as though there were a great cultural and intellectual void lying between their city limits, filled with rubes whose political opinions spoil the whole show for them. I am definitely in a political minority in Ohio, which is largely conservative, and usually Republican. No one has yet, however, offered to lynch me for my opinions. I think our regular members know that i don't hide my light under a bushel. What bothers me most in all of this is the aspect of tribalism. There is a sense among many people throughout the country of "us and all the rest of you people." It really is too depressing to think that the human race has progressed to its current level of development, and still is comprised of small groups with essentially tribal views. I'd like to know your thoughts on this subject.
Sounds to me as though you are saying the people from New York and Los Angeles are a bunch of yahoos who make snap judgments -- and erroneous judgments -- about people from middle or rural America.
It also sounds to me as though you are making snap judgments -- and erroneous judgments -- about people from New York and Los Angeles.
I spend lots of time in New York City -- I know many, many New Yorkers -- and I know many people from Los Angeles. They are, for the most part, proud of the cultural, entertainment and educational elements of their environs -- but MOST don't have to bad-mouth middle or rural America in order to feel good about themselves.
I honestly don't know that many people from the "heartland" -- but from what I've read, they seem more likely to bad-mouth urban America than the other way around.
I do agree with you that it is too bad things are this way!
Your hearing is extraordinary, Frank, in that it sounds to you like many things i did not write. I wrote that denizens of those cities often speak, etc. . . . i did not write that all of them do, nor did i write that they always do.
As a point of information, i am a native New Yorker.
It's an universal phenomenon.A layman always wants to show himself / herself as superior to others.I've found this sort of feeling in myself though vaguely.Even if not expressed clearly it comes in many ways especially in belittling others and their achievements.
Thank you for your candor, KVS. I, too, have had such feelings, and i recall them with regret, and a mild remorse (only mild, i've never been a part of a "lynch mob" mentality).
Your remark that this is a universal phenonmenon is precisely what disturbs me. I would hope for more maturity from the human race as a whole.
Seems to me that the tribal mentality is a law of nature. Pride in ones' own is inherent. We'll never grow beyond this. Haven't so far. I don't think it's possible. Not for the entire race. There's always some hoohaa somewhere ready and willing to start a war cause your guy dissed his guy.
You have a good point, EOE, sad to say . . .
I suppose i view this a little as i would literacy--universal literacy is not an unreasonable goal.
Tribal societies
The mess in which we are imbroiled in both Iraq and Afghanistan is only going to get worse because it appears that no one in the Bush administration understands tribal societies. This lack of knowledge is very dangerous in our dealings with the Muslim world.
BBB
This may be off topic but I think that media has a lot to do with this.
A white Midwest or Far west kid's main exposure to blacks is mtv...well then, black people must be bling bling wearing thugs who only think of pussy and who hate white people.
I don't know how many people I know or have known that have never been to or are going to New York City for the first time whose exposure to it is tv...so they think someones being raped or robbed on every corner at any given minute and don't realize that that's just not the case.....
Men are either babbling idiots or diabolical abusers......well you get the idea.
Add to that the fact that people, especially when in the "mob" mentality tend to think the worst and of course they draw the wagons into a circle around themselves and those like them......
I agree with eoe that we'll never eliminate this. We can improve though, and we can define ourselves by the effort to overcome this tendency.
Whew, that's pretty serious for me. I gotta quit snorting cocaine before I even have my coffee....
Good post, though, Bear . . . well thought-out and expressed . . .
BBB, I think they understand tribal societies just fine. It's the infuriating lack of respect, not just for the Muslim world but anyone and anything different from their own selfish narrow-mindedness. And it's not just the Bush administration. Every administration everywhere could stand to be a little more tolerant of different worlds and cultures.
Right on Bear. We can at least TRY.
Setanta wrote:Good post, though, Bear . . . well thought-out and expressed . . .
Why do I flash to "My Cousin Vinny" and why am I expecting you to now say...."Overruled"!!!!
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:Whew, that's pretty serious for me. I gotta quit snorting cocaine before I even have my coffee....
Doing lines before morning coffee!!!
How gauche!
A true gentleman only does that under the most special of circumstances!
I know some gentlemen and believe I'm no gentleman.....
Setanta wrote:Your hearing is extraordinary, Frank, in that it sounds to you like many things i did not write. I wrote that denizens of those cities often speak, etc. . . . i did not write that all of them do, nor did i write that they always do.
As a point of information, i am a native New Yorker.
Nothing wrong with my "hearing" at all.
You are simply disavowing the essence of your post.
But I've come to expect that kind of thing -- so no big surprise.
By the way, I did not say that you said "all of them do" or that "they always do."
You really ought to try arguing some time without creating strawmen. It can be tougher -- but it is more ethical.
Straw men . . . you're the one who set up strawmen:
Frank Apisa wrote:I honestly don't know that many people from the "heartland" -- but from what I've read, they seem more likely to bad-mouth urban America than the other way around.
Simply because you choose to conflate a statement about what New Yorkers and Angelenos
often say, which is what i wrote, into urban America, does not authorize a contention on your part about my having set up straw men. In fact, if you read and comprehend the entirety of my post (something which over time i have begun to wonder if you are capable of doing), you'd see that it follows from the remarks i've heard from many New Yorkers who have relocated to Columbus. There was no attempt to set up straw men on my part. I have already posited tribalism, which means that people from "the heartland" (just where the hell is that, Frank?) are no more and no less guilty of that parochialism than are the dwellers in New York and Los Angeles.
I really don't need lessons in ethics from someone who spouts a bit of mealy mouthed hypocricy such as this, after your statement in another thread:
Frank Apisa wrote:The Chinese are among the most calculating human beings on the planet Earth.
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, Frank. But i've come to expect this sort of thing from you, so no big surprise.
Hoist on your own petard, Frank.
The Chinese are among the most calculating human beings on the planet Earth.
I too would like that statement associated with my name as I agree with it. It's a generalization with billions of exceptions but a valid one nonetheless.
Please no petards.......the air is just clearing after that big christmas dinner.......
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:A white Midwest or Far west kid's main exposure to blacks is mtv...well then, black people must be bling bling wearing thugs who only think of pussy and who hate white people.
It would be interesting to see this quantified (I'm not asking for it to be just making a comment..) to see if it actually holds true.
In my own experience there is more segregation along racial lines in the urban areas I've been in than in the rural areas. Many areas of the midwest have much larger minority populations than most people realize and those minorities aren't clustered together in neighborhoods so whites are routinely exposed to blacks, hispanics, etc.. daily.
In both Austin, TX and here in Boston anyone that's been around for more than a few months can pretty much draw lines on a map and ID neighborhoods based on race.
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