farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 07:57 pm
@oralloy,
IMHO, these folks running the JApanese plants are apparently no less incompetent than the Russians. We are sneaking up on Chernobyl as I saw the reports of Cesium 137 in downwind samples.

Apparently the "Surpression pools" didnt work as designed looks like they racked when they sank a bit in the quakes. These are old Gilbert gen I plants.
Spraying boracited seawater by chopper? This is the best we got? Looks like pellets are dropping out and with the heat , we can see goodly plumes of radioactivity withing the prevailing winds .

I dont see any upsides here, we could have a huge regional disaster that would, by ripple effects, **** up trhe worlds teetering economy.

Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:02 pm
@farmerman,
They are also spraying water canons from fire trucks at it.

From NHK:

SDF begins efforts to cool down nuclear plant

Two helicopters from Japan's Self-Defense Forces are dropping water on the Number Three building at the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The helicopters began dousing the damaged reactor-housing building at 9:48 AM on Thursday.

The SDF has dispatched two CH-47 helicopters equipped with a device for dropping 7.5 tons of water.

They're being accompanied by another helicopter that is measuring radiation levels above the plant. The first water-dropping operation was completed at around 10:15 AM.

Fears of radiation leaks are rising for the plant's two reactors, where water in the pool for spent nuclear fuel is believed to be vaporizing due to the failure of the cooling system.

This could expose the fuel rods, possibly causing them to melt and discharge radioactive material into the air. The government's emergency task force has asked the SDF and the police to cool down the reactor buildings by refilling the pool.

The SDF is also sending 11 high-pressure fire trucks from their bases across Japan to spray water on the reactor buildings.

A high-pressure fire truck from the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department is also set to begin spraying water onto the Number Four reactor building.

Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:34 +0900 (JST)
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:04 pm
Source
Quote:
Last Defense at Troubled Reactors: 50 Japanese Workers
By KEITH BRADSHER and HIROKO TABUCHI

A small crew of technicians, braving radiation and fire, became the only people remaining at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station on Tuesday — and perhaps Japan’s last chance of preventing a broader nuclear catastrophe.

They crawl through labyrinths of equipment in utter darkness pierced only by their flashlights, listening for periodic explosions as hydrogen gas escaping from crippled reactors ignites on contact with air.

They breathe through uncomfortable respirators or carry heavy oxygen tanks on their backs. They wear white, full-body jumpsuits with snug-fitting hoods that provide scant protection from the invisible radiation sleeting through their bodies.

They are the faceless 50, the unnamed operators who stayed behind. They have volunteered, or been assigned, to pump seawater on dangerously exposed nuclear fuel, already thought to be partly melting and spewing radioactive material, to prevent full meltdowns that could throw thousands of tons of radioactive dust high into the air and imperil millions of their compatriots.

The workers — and an increasing proportion of soldiers — struggled on Tuesday and Wednesday to keep hundreds of gallons of seawater a minute flowing through temporary fire pumps into the three stricken reactors, Nos. 1, 2 and 3. Among the many problems that officials acknowledged on Wednesday were what appeared to be yet another fire at the plant and indications that the containment vessel surrounding a reactor may have ruptured. That reactor, No. 3, appeared to be releasing radioactive steam.

The reactor’s operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company, said it had been able to double the number of people at the plant to 100 as a result of falling radiation levels, but that was before the sudden release of radioactive vapor. It was not immediately clear how many of the workers and soldiers at the plant might have evacuated after that.

Those remaining are being asked to make escalating — and perhaps existential — sacrifices that so far are being only implicitly acknowledged: Japan’s Health Ministry said Tuesday it was raising the legal limit on the amount of radiation to which each worker could be exposed, to 250 millisieverts from 100 millisieverts, five times the maximum exposure permitted for American nuclear plant workers.

The change means that workers can now remain on site longer, the ministry said. “It would be unthinkable to raise it further than that, considering the health of the workers,” the health minister, Yoko Komiyama, said at a news conference. There was also a suggestion on Wednesday that more workers may be brought to help save the power station.

Tokyo Electric Power, the plant’s operator, has said almost nothing at all about the workers, including how long a worker is expected to endure exposure.

The few details Tokyo Electric has made available paint a dire picture. Five workers have died since the quake and 22 more have been injured for various reasons, while two are missing. One worker was hospitalized after suddenly grasping his chest and finding himself unable to stand, and another needed treatment after receiving a blast of radiation near a damaged reactor. Eleven workers were injured in a hydrogen explosion at reactor No. 3.

Nuclear reactor operators say that their profession is typified by the same kind of esprit de corps found among firefighters and elite military units. Lunchroom conversations at reactors frequently turn to what operators would do in a severe emergency.

The consensus is always that they would warn their families to flee before staying at their posts to the end, said Michael Friedlander, a former senior operator at three American power plants for a total of 13 years.

“You’re certainly worried about the health and safety of your family, but you have an obligation to stay at the facility,” he said. “There is a sense of loyalty and camaraderie when you’ve trained with guys, you’ve done shifts with them for years.”

Adding to this natural bonding, jobs in Japan confer identity, command loyalty and inspire a particularly fervent kind of dedication. Economic straits have chipped away at the hallowed idea of lifetime employment for many Japanese, but the workplace remains a potent source of community. Mr. Friedlander said that he had no doubt that in an identical accident in the United States, 50 volunteers could be found to stay behind after everyone else evacuated from an extremely hazardous environment. But Japanese are raised to believe that individuals sacrifice for the good of the group.

The reactor operators face extraordinary risks. Tokyo Electric evacuated 750 emergency staff members from the stricken plant on Tuesday, leaving only about 50, when radiation levels soared. By comparison, standard staffing levels at the three active General Electric reactors on the site would be 10 to 12 people apiece including supervisors — an indication that the small crew left behind is barely larger than the contingent on duty on a quiet day.

Daiichi is not synonymous with Chernobyl in terms of the severity of contamination. The Ukrainian reactor blew up and spewed huge amounts of radiation for 10 days in 1986. But workers at the plants have a bond.

Among plant employees and firefighters at Chernobyl, many volunteered to try to tame, and then entomb, the burning reactor — although it is not clear that all were told the truth about the risks. Within three months, 28 of them died from radiation exposure. At least 19 of them were killed by infections that resulted from having large areas of their skin burned off by radiation, according to a recent report by a United Nations scientific committee. And 106 others developed radiation sickness, with nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and dropping blood counts that left them highly vulnerable to infections.

The people who had suffered radiation sickness developed other problems later, according to the report: cataracts, severe scarring from the radiation burns to their skin and an increased number of deaths from leukemia and other blood cancers.

Some of those Chernobyl workers were exposed to levels of radiation far beyond what has been measured to date at Daiichi — especially helicopter pilots who flew through radiation-laden smoke spewing from the reactor to drop fire-extinguishing chemicals on it.

Radiation close to the reactors was reported to reach 400 millisieverts per hour on Tuesday after a blast inside reactor No. 2 and fire at reactor No. 4, but has since dropped back to as low as 0.6 millisieverts at the plant gate. Tokyo Electric and Japanese regulators have not released any statistics on radiation levels inside the containment buildings where engineers are desperately trying to fix electrical systems, pumps and other gear wrecked by Friday’s earthquake and tsunami.

But nuclear experts said that indoor radiation levels were likely to be higher because the containment buildings were probably still preventing most radiation from leaving the plant.

The site is now so contaminated with radiation, experts say, that it has become difficult for employees to work near the reactors for extended periods of time. According to one expert’s account of nuclear emergency procedures, workers would be cycled in and out of the worst-hit parts of the plant.

In some cases, when dealing with a task in a highly radioactive area of the plant, workers might line up and handle the task only for minutes at a time before passing off to the next worker, said Katsuhiko Ishibashi, a former professor in the Research Center for Urban Safety and Security at Kobe University.

Tokyo Electric has refused to release the names or any other information about the 50 workers who stayed behind, nor have utility executives said anything about how they are being relieved as they become tired or ill.

Some of those battling flames and spraying water at reactors at Daiichi are members of Japan’s Self-Defense Force, police officers or firefighters.

Defense Minister Toshimi Kitazawa said Tuesday that Self-Defense Force soldiers might be called on to fly the helicopters Tokyo Electric may use to spray water onto the overheating used fuel storage pool at reactor No. 4. The same day, however, members of Japan’s nuclear watchdog group, who had been stationed about three miles from the plant, were moved to a site 18 miles away. (The authorities later said that using helicopters to put spray water on reactor No. 4 might not be feasible.) If the plant operator is limiting the exposure of each worker at Daiichi — and calling on hundreds of volunteers to make up the 50 on site at any given time — then Chernobyl may offer some consolation.

To clean up the Chernobyl site after the accident, the Soviet Union conscripted workers in proportion to the size of each of its republics, and developed a system to limit their exposure.

“They sent up to 600,000 people in to clean up the radioactive debris around the plant and build a sarcophagus,” said Dr. John Boice, an author of the study, a professor of medicine at Vanderbilt and the scientific director of the International Epidemiology Institute in Rockvillle, Md. The workers were sent into contaminated zones for limited periods.

Keith Bradsher reported from Hong Kong, and Hiroko Tabuchi from Tokyo. Denise Grady contributed reporting from New York, and Matthew L. Wald from Washington.

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: March 16, 2011

A news alert associated with an earlier version of this article, relying on an English translation of remarks by Japan's chief cabinet secretary, incorrectly stated that workers had been evacuated from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. A core group of workers remained at the plant.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:06 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Apparently the "Surpression pools" didnt work as designed looks like they racked when they sank a bit in the quakes. These are old Gilbert gen I plants.
Spraying boracited seawater by chopper? This is the best we got?


ya......they are down to a wing and a prayer....

I read somewhere someone excoriating the Japanese for not building robots, he made the point that we can put out a well a mile under the ocean with robots, we sure as **** can build robots to work in contaminated nuclear sites.....and the Japanese are the global robotics experts.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:14 pm
Alert releases from the IAEA:

Japanese Earthquake Update (17 March 01:15 UTC)
17 March 2011
Injuries or Contamination at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant


0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
and the Japanese are the global robotics experts.
The water table in that area is not deep so if the pellets melt, we can see a huuge steam plume of rdionuclides in the PAcific.

Pwerhaps one of a number of plans will be to surround the entire area s of the pools with constructed sheetpile "coffer dams" and pump in huuge amounts of borated seawater to begin a cooldown that will take years.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:19 pm
Here's the official NRC press release about their order for Americans within 50 miles to evacuate.

It is a pdf.

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/news/2011/11-050.pdf

Here's an excerpt from it:

Quote:
In response to nuclear emergencies, the NRC works with other U.S. agencies to monitor radioactive releases and predict their path. All the available information continues to indicate Hawaii, Alaska, the U.S. Territories and the U.S. West Coast are not expected to experience any harmful levels of radioactivity.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:23 pm
@farmerman,
a huge part of the problem now is that humans cant get close enough to the reactors to know what is going on, as the gages in the control room either dont work or dont tell them what they need to know....Robots would have solved that problem...
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:32 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
IMHO, these folks running the JApanese plants are apparently no less incompetent than the Russians. We are sneaking up on Chernobyl as I saw the reports of Cesium 137 in downwind samples.

Apparently the "Surpression pools" didnt work as designed looks like they racked when they sank a bit in the quakes. These are old Gilbert gen I plants.
Spraying boracited seawater by chopper? This is the best we got? Looks like pellets are dropping out and with the heat , we can see goodly plumes of radioactivity withing the prevailing winds .

I dont see any upsides here, we could have a huge regional disaster that would, by ripple effects, **** up trhe worlds teetering economy.


I think when this is over, the nuclear industry needs to review standards for holding spent fuel rods to better ensure their safety in events like this.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:33 pm
@farmerman,
I saw what seemed like a nuclear power plant expert on tv saying that there was no explosion. I'm not sure what he meant, because there have been reports of explosions.
Butrflynet
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
There are so many unsubstantiated rumors/opinions/false speculations going around on cable news in the last 24 hours that I have stopped using them as a single source and go directly to the reporting agencies and local news reports to verify anything being said.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:49 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I think when this is over, the nuclear industry needs to review standards for holding spent fuel rods to better ensure their safety in events like this.
that is a problem when no one can agree on a disposal method. Remember Obama canceled the one america was working on for a decade and $15 billion spent, with no alternative of course. We have 60,000 tons of used fuel sitting around our reactors.

GO OBAMA! That is some high class leadership right there!
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 09:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
I think when this is over, the nuclear industry needs to review standards for holding spent fuel rods to better ensure their safety in events like this.


that is a problem when no one can agree on a disposal method. Remember Obama canceled the one america was working on for a decade and $15 billion spent, with no alternative of course. We have 60,000 tons of used fuel sitting around our reactors.


When it comes to disposal, I'm all for reprocessing the actinides into fuel for fast-neutron reactors.

But the question of "disposal" of spent fuel can wait. What I'd like to see are better standards for mere "storage" of spent fuel while we decide what to do with it.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 09:24 pm
Why, you've certainly been a busy little spammer, haven't you.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 09:31 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
But the question of "disposal" of spent fuel can wait. What I'd like to see are better standards for mere "storage" of spent fuel while we decide what to do with it
Never happen.... the NIMBY's howl and make super expensive any effort to move the stuff claiming that the risk of movement is too great. And then who are you going to get to take it, even temporarily?

Moving it once is almost impossible. Moving it twice is impossible given the power of our court system.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 09:33 pm
@roger,
I reported this spammer, and it seems he's been deleted from a2k.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 11:30 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
But the question of "disposal" of spent fuel can wait. What I'd like to see are better standards for mere "storage" of spent fuel while we decide what to do with it


Never happen.... the NIMBY's howl and make super expensive any effort to move the stuff claiming that the risk of movement is too great. And then who are you going to get to take it, even temporarily?

Moving it once is almost impossible. Moving it twice is impossible given the power of our court system.


I'm not sure it needs to be moved much in order to upgrade the storage. Even if they need to build entirely new structures to hold it, they could build the new structures next to where the spent rods currently are.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2011 12:06 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I'm not sure it needs to be moved much in order to upgrade the storage. Even if they need to build entirely new structures to hold it, they could build the new structures next to where the spent rods currently are.
Perhaps, but you do realize that in this case we have a situation where a problem with spent fuel storage is contaminating the reactor site, thus they can not properly deal with the reactor problems. This does not get solved with new buildings, it is the distance between the spent fuel storage and the reactors that is the root of the problem and only getting the rod pool storage a good distance away from the reactors will give comfort.

Many many critics over the years have pointed out that storing spent fuel at reactor sites is stunningly stupid...it is only because our political system does not work thus we cant get the smarter options done that we do this....
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2011 01:21 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
I'm not sure it needs to be moved much in order to upgrade the storage. Even if they need to build entirely new structures to hold it, they could build the new structures next to where the spent rods currently are.


Perhaps, but you do realize that in this case we have a situation where a problem with spent fuel storage is contaminating the reactor site, thus they can not properly deal with the reactor problems. This does not get solved with new buildings, it is the distance between the spent fuel storage and the reactors that is the root of the problem and only getting the rod pool storage a good distance away from the reactors will give comfort.

Many many critics over the years have pointed out that storing spent fuel at reactor sites is stunningly stupid...it is only because our political system does not work thus we cant get the smarter options done that we do this....


At this point, the biggest problem with the spent fuel is not that it is preventing access to the reactors (which are already melted, but are inside a containment structure), but that the spent fuel rods will have their own meltdown, without a containment structure.

The way this plant in Japan has the spent fuel ponds directly above the reactors is certainly a bad idea. But if the spent fuel rods were themselves within an adequate containment structure, there would not be a looming disaster if they were to have their own meltdown.

Adequate containment would also protect the workers from the spent fuel so that they would not have had to abandon the plant.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2011 01:23 am
Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:49pm EDT

TOKYO, March 17 (Reuters) - The operator of a stricken nuclear power plant in northeast Japan said on Thursday pressure was rising again at reactor No.3, which includes plutonium and uranium in its fuel mix and which on Wednesday it said was its "priority".

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/17/japan-pressure-idUSTKB00737320110317
0 Replies
 
 

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