@rosborne979,
Haven't tried the Tunneling Tool yet, will take your word for it. There's no hope for the fool here, though, he locates an article about the nuclear fuel in one Fukushima reactor melting and remaining in the containment vessel - and he tries to start a panic thinking that the fuel is well on its way to Argentina
@High Seas,
Guilty,
Quote: It can re-ignite spontaneously, right?
sounds like he big cool off didnt take. What I wanted to know was wheher it hit the ground-water table. I didnt follow the thing after they claimed sauccess at cool down
@farmerman,
No, water table definitely not compromised - fuel was contained inside cement containment vessel.
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
You were following the isotopes all along - hey, you're the one who explained the more exotic ones to the rest of us on this thread (unless it was George OB). It's been known for months there had been a core meltdown; and also that very recently some fuel had re-ignited. It can re-ignite spontaneously, right?
The fuel in a shutdown but otherwise normally functioning reactor will continue to generate mostly from the beta decay of radioactive fission products for a few days. Instantly after shutdown (control rods inserted) the decay heat is roughly 6-7% of the average power level prior to shutdown, however it drops off in fairly rapid exponential decay to a very low level after just a few days as the mostly short lived fission products decay away. At this point its heat generation is minimal. Typical spent reactor fuel initially generates about 12KW/ton , which isn't likely to burn anything..
If there is a loss of cooland (water) as at Fukushima, some fuel may briefly continue fissioning at a low level as long as it remains surrounded by water to thermalize the neutrons , however even there the carefuly crafted geometry required to sustain criticalitty quickly breaks down leaving only the aforementioned decay heat. This is enough to burn through the steel reactor vessel, but not enough to penetrate the reinforced concrete containment structure. As time passes the melted core spreads, resolidifies, and the decay heat passes through the containment structure by simple conduction.
@georgeob1,
Thanks very much. Found Tepco's release - so far it's only available in Japanese - and their drawing looks exactly as you described: the fuel went through some of the first layer of concrete but stopped well short of the outer steel vessel, so never reached the outer concrete at all. (Brown mess is melted fuel).
@farmerman,
Look! Deep submersible located and took picture of north-south fissure in ocean floor offshore Sendai. In 2006 same section of floor was unbroken:
2011 picture
2006 picture
Quote:About 10,500 feet to 17,500 feet (3,200 to 5,350-meters) below the ocean's surface, the researchers saw open fissures in "many places," Tsuji said. ..... when the crust ruptured some 12 miles (20 km) below the planet's surface, it was powerful enough to rip all the way to the surface.
7.0 M - IZU ISLANDS, JAPAN REGION
Preliminary Earthquake Report
Magnitude 7.0 M
Date-Time
1 Jan 2012 05:27:54 UTC
1 Jan 2012 14:27:54 near epicenter
31 Dec 2011 23:27:54 standard time in your timezone
Location 31.416N 138.155E
Depth 348 km
Distances
241 km (150 miles) SW (220 degrees) of Hachijo-jima, Izu Islands, Japan
368 km (228 miles) S (173 degrees) of Hamamatsu, Honshu, Japan
395 km (245 miles) SSE (157 degrees) of Tsu, Honshu, Japan
495 km (308 miles) SSW (198 degrees) of TOKYO, Japan
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-01-01/japan-earthquake/52310810/1
TOKYO (AP) – A strong earthquake with a preliminary magnitude of 7.0 earthquake hit off the shores of Japan's southern Pacific island.
The Meteorological Agency says the offshore quake Sunday struck about 230 miles below the sea surface. The agency said there was no danger of a tsunami. There were no immediate reports of damage or injuries.
Northeastern Japan was devastated by a massive earthquake and tsunami on March 11 that left nearly 20,000 people dead or missing. Japan, which lies along the Pacific "Ring of Fire," is one of the world's most seismically active countries.
7.3 Mwp - OFF EAST COAST OF HONSHU, JAPAN
Preliminary Earthquake Report
Magnitude 7.3 Mwp
Date-Time
7 Dec 2012 08:18:24 UTC
7 Dec 2012 18:18:24 near epicenter
7 Dec 2012 02:18:24 standard time in your timezone
Location 37.889N 144.090E
Depth 36 km
Distances
284 km (176 miles) E (97 degrees) of Sendai, Honshu, Japan
296 km (184 miles) ENE (71 degrees) of Iwaki, Honshu, Japan
319 km (198 miles) E (86 degrees) of Fukushima, Honshu, Japan
459 km (285 miles) NE (56 degrees) of TOKYO, Japan
Strong earthquake hits Japanese coast; Tsunami warning lifted
By Elaine Kurtenbach
Associated Press
Posted: 12/07/2012 09:31:14 AM PST
Updated: 12/07/2012 09:31:21 AM PST
TOKYO -- A strong earthquake Friday struck the same Japanese coast devastated by last year's massive quake and tsunami, generating small waves but no immediate reports of heavy damage. Several people along the northeastern coast were reportedly injured and buildings in Tokyo and elsewhere swayed for several minutes.
The earthquake had a preliminary magnitude of 7.3 and struck in the Pacific Ocean off the coast of Miyagi prefecture at 5:18 p.m. (12:18 PST), the Japan Meteorological Agency said. The epicenter was 10 kilometers (6.2 miles) beneath the seabed and 240 kilometers (150 miles) offshore.
The area was shaken by repeated, smaller aftershocks, the agency said.
After the quake, authorities issued a warning that a tsunami potentially as high as 2 meters (2.2 yards) could hit. Sirens whooped along the coast as people ran for higher ground.
Ishinomaki, a city in Miyagi, reported a tsunami 1 meter (1 yard) high and other towns reported smaller tsunamis.
About two hours after the quake struck, the tsunami warning was cancelled. The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center earlier said there was no risk of a widespread tsunami.
Aiko Hibiya, a volunteer for the recovery in Minami-Sanriku, a coastal town devastated by last year's tsunami, said she was at a friend's temporary housing when the quake struck.
"It shook for such a long time," she said.
She said other volunteers who had been in coastal areas were evacuated to a square and a parking lot as they waited for the tsunami warning to be lifted.
Japan has barely begun to rebuild from last year's magnitude-9.0 earthquake, which triggered a tsunami that swelled to 20 meters high in some areas, ravaging dozens of coastal communities in Miyagi and elsewhere. About 19,000 people were killed and some 325,000 people remain displaced from their homes, living in barracks and other temporary quarters.
Miyagi prefectural police said there were no immediate reports of damage from Friday's quake and tsunami, although traffic was being stopped in some places to check on roads.
Public television broadcaster NHK reported that five people were injured, including a 75-year-old woman in Miyagi who fell while fleeing the tsunami. Police said they could not immediately confirm those reports.
Shortly before the earthquake struck, NHK broke off regular programming to warn that a strong quake was due to hit. Afterward, the announcer repeatedly urged all near the coast to flee to higher ground.
The Meteorological Agency has an early warning system that, using data from seismographs scattered across Japan, enables it to provide advance warning of the estimated intensity and timing of a major quake. The warning for Friday's quake was issued six minutes before it struck, according to an unnamed official from the Meteorological Agency who spoke on national television more than an hour after the quake.
The magnitude-9.0 earthquake and ensuing tsunami that slammed into northeastern Japan on March 11, 2011, killed or left missing some 19,000 people, devastating much of the coast.
Last year's earthquake and tsunami also caused meltdowns at the Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear plant in the worst nuclear disaster since the Chernobyl in 1986.
Immediately following Friday's quake, there were no problems at any of the nuclear plants operated by Fukushima Dai-Ichi operator Tokyo Electric Power Co., said a TEPCO spokesman, Takeo Iwamoto. Only two of Japan's 50 nuclear plants are currently operating; the rest have been shut down for maintenance and safety checks while the country re-examines the future of nuclear power there.
All Nippon Airways spokesman Takuya Taniguchi said government officials were checking on the runways at Sendai airport. The two jets that were in the air went to other airports and all seven flights scheduled to go to Sendai for the day were cancelled, he said.
There are many folks here who understand this much better than I do but this doesn't look good.
Quote:Containing radiation equivalent to 14,000 times the amount released in the atomic bomb attack on Hiroshima 68 years ago, more than 1,300 used fuel rod assemblies packed tightly together need to be removed from a building that is vulnerable to collapse, should another large earthquake hit the area.
Tokyo Electric Power Co (Tepco) is already in a losing battle to stop radioactive water overflowing from another part of the facility, and experts question whether it will be able to pull off the removal of all the assemblies successfully.
"They are going to have difficulty in removing a significant number of the rods," said Arnie Gundersen, a veteran U.S. nuclear engineer and director of Fairewinds Energy Education, who used to build fuel assemblies.
Reuters
@JPB,
the thing that really does not look good is that it appears that at least one of the reactor cores melded all of the way through the containment system, though officials are still denying this. they are stretching far in their attempt to explain how super highly radioactive water is flowing into the ocean for a reason other than the obvious.
@hawkeye10,
head over to CNN for a report that not one but three reactor cores have melted all of the way through the vessels and that no one knows where they are, confirming my assertions if about 18 months ago.
Tweet from The Weather Channel:
Quote:At 1:25pm EDT US time a 5.8 #earthquake struck near the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant in Japan. Strong shaking reported there.
http://twitter.com/weatherchannel/status/380747538783277056
@oralloy,
these guys need to get the spent fuel out of there and either dig up or find someway to encase the 4 melted reactors. they are still in emergency mode, doing nothing while they create more and more polluted water, which will eventally become unmanageable. the international Olympic Committee has just made another great argument for doing away with the Olympics, Tokyo 2020 is reckless disregard of common sense given the Japanese governments appalling ineptitude at managing this nuclear plant.
@hawkeye10,
**** the UN and all if its wars against petty dictators, if it wanted to be usefull it would demand control of this site to safeguard the inhabitants of the planet.
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:hawkeye10 wrote:these guys need to get the spent fuel out of there and either dig up or find someway to encase the 4 melted reactors. they are still in emergency mode, doing nothing while they create more and more polluted water, which will eventally become unmanageable. the international Olympic Committee has just made another great argument for doing away with the Olympics, Tokyo 2020 is reckless disregard of common sense given the Japanese governments appalling ineptitude at managing this nuclear plant.
**** the UN and all if its wars against petty dictators, if it wanted to be usefull it would demand control of this site to safeguard the inhabitants of the planet.
I'm all for having the UN/IAEA take over the site. I've caught Japan repeatedly lying about the severity of the damage, to the point where I don't believe them when they say they have found no damage from this earthquake.
However, I don't think there is anything that can be done about the melted reactors presently. They are WAY too radioactive to dig up.
And if people stopped pumping water into them, the damaged cores would probably heat up and resume their meltdown process.
The spent fuel could be removed though.
@oralloy,
step 1:
figure out where the cores are.
they have not done it. it this rate the site is going to become unmanageable with polluted water (and maybe too hostile for humans to work in) long before they get this sonofabitch decommissioned.
@oralloy,
Quote:
However, I don't think there is anything that can be done about the melted reactors presently. They are WAY too radioactive to dig up.
Martin Marietta, in its copious spare time, has developed all sorts of autonomous excavators that can be remotely assembled by little drone bots and then the excavators and loaders can work in the highly radioactive site and then , as it gets cleaned and conceted, they leave the machines as the last pile of cement.
I watched one of their excavators (named Trex,) back in the early 90's and they've refined this stuff in the ensuing 20 years. It was one of Martin Mariettas gizmos that solved the "methane ice" slush problem in the big BP oil spill of 2011.
Im sure China has already copied the Trex and built it waaay cheaper, by now.
@farmerman,
not only that but there is no excuse for the japanese to have not developed some driods to work near the cores, and thus figure out were the cores are.
only now are they getting started on working on freezing the earth to keep seepage out of the ocean??!! talk about being a day late and a dollar short....a continuing pattern here. it is shocking how inept the japanese have been with this plant, both before and after the quake.
@hawkeye10,
hydraulic barriers, such as freezing, work prett good with anything except ground water. GW will always find a way around the barrier. Im more amazed that they haven't reported any contaminated steam as the meltdown hits the ground water surrounding the site and sets it boiling
