34
   

Why the anti-union animosity?

 
 
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 11:08 am
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

If unions restricted themselves to working issues like pay, benefits and working conditions for their members, rather than funding the political viewpoints of the far left, they'd probably see less resentment and pushback from this right of center country.

That's not true at all. The reasons unions have to be politically active is that owners are active politically trying to defeat unions with legislation. As long as business owners donate to political causes, unions must do the same.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 11:28 am
@slkshock7,
What evidence do you have that this is the truth of the situation? Why should capital be able to organize against unions, by buying political influence, but labor should not be afforded the same opportunity? Sauce for the goose makes sauce for the gander.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 11:37 am
@engineer,
Good response.

That goes for governments trying to restrict unions. They're attempting to take away worker's rights by destroying unions.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 11:56 am
@cicerone imposter,
Are you aware that the Federal government provides even more restrictions on the "collective bargaining rights" of unions representing Federal employees than those that are in the draft legislation in Wisconsin? Do you also assert that the federal government has "taken away" the rights of their workers?

The fact is that Federal law stipulates that the determination of pay & benefits and work rules for federal workers is an inherent function of the officials of an elected government, and one that cannot lawfully be "negotiated" with an outside party. The irony is that their unions get to collect full dues while doing almost nothing other than political action and pay-offs for it. It's a wonderful racket !

Wisconsin is merely trying to create a situatioon more like the one that has existed in the Federal government since the 1978 legislation described above was passed.

The feature of the proposed Wisconsin law that really has the union bosses enraged is the provision for annual recertification of the Union's status, through a secret ballot of the workers themselves. They correctly see this as a grave threat to the permanent monopoly status they demand.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:12 pm
@georgeob1,
That's because "federal" is a much different environment; we can't have the military in unions. People "volunteer" into the military knowing many of the civilian freedoms will be lost.

Otherwise, there are federal workers unions:
http://www.federaldaily.com/labor/UnionTradeProGroups.htm
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

That's because "federal" is a much different environment; we can't have the military in unions. People "volunteer" into the military knowing many of the civilian freedoms will be lost.

Otherwise, there are federal workers unions:
http://www.federaldaily.com/labor/UnionTradeProGroups.htm


You are very confused. We have extensive unionization in the Federal government today, though inionization of the military remains prohibited. Thus there is no difference at all in the comparable parts of their respective "environments".

How is this different from unionization of state or city police forces? Indeed the Supreme ccourt has deemed strikes by police as illegal and against the public interest.

The socereignty of states is even more fundamental than that of the federal government in that they created the Federal government. If the Feds can limit the bargaining powers of unions infesting Federal agencies themn surely the states can do the same.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:29 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
The socereignty of states is even more fundamental than that of the federal government in that they created the Federal government. If the Feds can limit the bargaining powers of unions infesting Federal agencies themn surely the states can do the same.


And surely they can rip them off for their health care and pension funds, which the workers, not the state of Wisconsin, funded--i mean, after all, sovereignty in your view is little different than licensed theft, right?
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:48 pm
@Setanta,
Agreed. What government gives, it can take away.

Right now Wisconsin is facing declining economic activity, high unemployment, and a large deficit. It can either pare costs or raise taxes. Both involve taking something that someone wants. Judgement is required to select the options doing the least general harm. I believe the state in this instance has made the best judgement.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:56 pm
@georgeob1,
Way to dodge the facts, O'George. The state did not give the funds, the union members funded, unaided, those programs. But i doubt that this will change your opinion that the state is entitled to take those funds from the union.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:58 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Agreed. What government gives, it can take away.

Right now Wisconsin is facing declining economic activity, high unemployment, and a large deficit. It can either pare costs or raise taxes. Both involve taking something that someone wants. Judgement is required to select the options doing the least general harm. I believe the state in this instance has made the best judgement.


This argument is fallacious on one major point: the Unions have agreed to concessions. Walker doesn't want concessions, he's gunning to break them entirely. It has nothing to do with money at this point.

I would also point out that Walker's decision to create a slush fund of about 150 million dollars, of new spending which is not paid for, in order to 'attract corporations to WI,' sort of gives the lie to the idea that Walker's actions are truly motivated by any sort of economic dire straits.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 01:04 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
It's not fallacious at all. I was responding to Setanta's suggestion that the state's action , after the fact in his view, to call for union employees to raise their share in the funding of pension and health benefits, was unfair. My response to that point was direct, self consistent, and clear. You and Setanta may disagree with it, but, as I noted, it is a matter of judgment, and that there are no options available to the state that don't involve taking something from someone.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 01:18 pm
@georgeob1,
You said,
Quote:
Are you aware that the Federal government provides even more restrictions on the "collective bargaining rights" of unions representing Federal employees than those that are in the draft legislation in Wisconsin? Do you also assert that the federal government has "taken away" the rights of their workers?


What are you trying to say? Unions are unions whether at the federal or state level. They have rights to negotiate and appeal for worker's rights.

From OhMyGov:
Quote:
A Look at Federal Employee Unions
By Angelia N. Levy Feb 02 2009, 10:01 AM

(Updated version of our Jan. 21 story, with fresh reporting)

If you’re lucky enough to be hired by the federal government, then you have a job for life. At least that’s how government jobs are often viewed, both inside and outside the Beltway, and not without some degree of truth.

The federal government may not offer a lot of private sector perks to its employees, such as bonuses, stock options, or significant salary increases. Yet it does offer a mostly stable environment with long-term job security.


Fed workers looking for additional job security and workplace protections might find their answer in union membership. Federal unions represent a diverse group of federal civilian employees, mainly those who would be classified as white collar or service industry workers. Analysts, researchers, computer technicians, Foreign Service, nurses, maritime, and electrical workers, for example.

Mark Roth, the general counsel for the American Federation of Government Employees, a leading union for feds, told OhMyGov! that the average union member is about fifty years of age, has approximately twenty-five years of work experience, and works in highly-specialized jobs at agencies such as Health and Human Services, Veterans Affairs and the Department of Defense.

The Office of Personnel Management lists more than 80 national and international unions and associations which are recognized, or which have representation in government executive agencies. Federal employees who work in the judicial and legislative branch generally don’t have much union representation. Of these 80-plus agencies, eight are unions that represent federal civilian employees.

Over the years OPM consistently reported that approximately 62% of federal employees were union members. In 2005 the Wall Street Journal claimed that only about 35% of the federal workforce belonged to federal unions.

Federal unions have complained that their low union membership totals is due to the federal government being the largest ‘right-to-work’ employer. Right-to-work allows an employee to determine whether he or she wants to join a union. It also keeps employers from making union membership an employment prerequisite.

According to Richard N. Brown, president of the National Federation of Federal Employees, much of the federal government still lacks union representation. He adds that the federal government’s right-to-work policy presents unique challenges when it comes to union recruitment efforts.

There are a few federal employee unions whose membership base numbers over 100,000. The top three federal civilian employee unions, ranked in order by size, are the American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE), the National Treasury Employee Union (NATEU), and the National Federation of Federal Employees (NFFE). Combined membership in these three unions is almost 850,000.


Those are pretty good benefits from where I sit; life-long job security. That stacks up better than civilian unions no matter how you cut it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 01:22 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

It's not fallacious at all. I was responding to Setanta's suggestion that the state's action , after the fact in his view, to call for union employees to raise their share in the funding of pension and health benefits, was unfair. My response to that point was direct, self consistent, and clear. You and Setanta may disagree with it, but, as I noted, it is a matter of judgment, and that there are no options available to the state that don't involve taking something from someone.


That's only half of what Walker is trying to do, though. Pretending that this argument is merely an economic one doesn't capture the reality of the situation.

Cycloptichorn
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 01:34 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
you're not gonna play the reality card are ya...?

Shocked
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 02:13 pm
@georgeob1,
You continue to miss the point, O'George, intentionally, i suspect. From WTMJ, News Radio in Milwaukee:

Quote:
The bill would also authorize the Department of Employee Trust Funds to use $28 million of excess balances in reserve accounts for health insurance and pharmacy benefits to reduce health insurance premium costs.


This clown wants to loot an existing trust fund made up of employee contributions. You're OK with that, i take it.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 03:20 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
This clown wants to loot an existing trust fund made up of employee contributions.

He also wants to sell State power plants to private companies in no-bid contracts. If I didn't know how morally upstanding tea-party governors are, I would suspect him of cronyism.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 03:45 pm
@Setanta,
I don't know all the details, but understand the public service employees in Wisconsin get their health care from an insurance program operated by the union, and the State believes they can get roughly equivalent coverage for less money in a competitive process.

However that has nothing to do with the point we were discussing. I'll agree that it too is something we could argue about and over which opinions may differ.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 03:54 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Setanta wrote:
This clown wants to loot an existing trust fund made up of employee contributions.

He also wants to sell State power plants to private companies in no-bid contracts. If I didn't know how morally upstanding tea-party governors are, I would suspect him of cronyism.


I don't know the motivations for this element of the law or why it was even included in the pending legislation - except that it too might help Wisconsin deal with the current budget crisis.

In general I don't see any public benefit in the state's operation of power generating stations or heating plants, and strongly believe that the privatization of them will lead to better service at lower cost. I have little knowledge of what may be behind the competitive bidding language (and suspect that Thomas doesn't either) and therefore no opinion about its merits or lack of them.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  3  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 04:39 pm
@Setanta,
Set,
Check Open Secrets list of top donors from 1989-2010...of the top twenty biggest donors in federal politics, 14 give predominately to Dems, 4 split their donations about equally and only 2 (#18 and #20) give predominately to the Repubs. Eleven of these top 20 are unions (all of which give 89% or more of their contributions to the democratic party.

The amounts of money the unions give dems is staggering...and is undoubtedly the reason that the Dems are so worried about Wisconsin. The same web site, if you add up the amounts given since 1989 just by the unions in the top 20 is $332M of which $321M went to Dems. By contrast the two repub leaning organizations in the top 20 gave away a total of $51M with $33M going to Repubs. Note the ten-fold difference between TOTAL dollars given by repub favoring organizations and that given to Dems by the unions ALONE.

I'm constantly amazed of this myth that Big Money is somehow a Republican strong suit...a quick perusal of this list puts the lie to that myth. In fact if you consider the $2.2B of corporate and special interest spending documented on that web site, 40% goes to Dems, 37% is about equally split and only 24% goes predominately to Repubs. Even adding up the actual dollars for each party doesn't support the myth....60% of the $2.2B went to Dems and 40% to Repubs.

Clearly unions are buying political influence and in far, far greater amounts than any business or capital-based organization.
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 04:56 pm
@slkshock7,
Boooyah.
 

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