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Why the anti-union animosity?

 
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2011 06:15 pm
@engineer,
The eternal 10%.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  0  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2011 06:18 pm
@ehBeth,
As suspicious of them as you are big business and thieir government stuges?
hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2011 09:26 pm
Quote:
Opinion: Krugman: Shock doctrine, USA

By Paul Krugman
Posted: 02/26/2011 10:00:00 PM PST
Link to source

Here's a thought: Maybe Madison, Wis., isn't Cairo after all. Maybe it's Baghdad -- specifically, Baghdad in 2003, when the Bush administration put Iraq under the rule of officials chosen for loyalty and political reliability rather than experience and competence.

As many readers may recall, the results were spectacular -- in a bad way. Instead of focusing on the urgent problems of a shattered economy and society, which would soon descend into a murderous civil war, those Bush appointees were obsessed with imposing a conservative ideological vision. Indeed, with looters still prowling the streets of Baghdad, L. Paul Bremer, the American viceroy, told a Washington Post reporter that one of his top priorities was to "corporatize and privatize state-owned enterprises" -- Bremer's words, not the reporter's -- and to "wean people from the idea the state supports everything."

The story of the privatization-obsessed Coalition Provisional Authority was the centerpiece of Naomi Klein's best-selling book "The Shock Doctrine," which argued that it was part of a broader pattern. From Chile in the 1970s onward, she suggested, right-wing ideologues have exploited crises to push through an agenda that has nothing to do with resolving those crises, and everything to do with imposing their vision of a harsher, more unequal, less democratic society.

Which brings us to Wisconsin 2011, where the shock doctrine is on full display.

In recent weeks, Madison has been the scene of large demonstrations against the governor's budget bill, which would deny collective-bargaining rights to public-sector workers. Gov. Scott Walker claims that he needs to pass his bill to deal with the state's fiscal problems. But his attack on unions has nothing to do with the budget.

What's happening in Wisconsin is a power grab -- an attempt to exploit the fiscal crisis to destroy the last major counterweight to the political power of corporations and the wealthy.

For example, the bill includes language that would allow officials appointed by the governor to make sweeping cuts in health coverage for low-income families without having to go through the normal legislative process.
The good news from Wisconsin is that the upsurge of public outrage -- aided by the maneuvering of Democrats in the state Senate -- has slowed the bum's rush.

But don't expect either Walker or the rest of his party to change those goals. Union-busting and privatization remain GOP priorities, and the party will continue its efforts to smuggle those priorities through in the name of balanced budgets.

Paul Krugman is a New York Times columnist.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2011 09:54 pm
@hingehead,
Yeah, I read that in today's San Jose Mercury News. Didn't want to add the article here, but felt Krugman does his homework, and knows his history before he writes anything. Sitting on the fence on this one, because equating WI to Baghdad is a bit of a stretch even for me.
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2011 09:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Fair call CI, I just thought it was an interesting interpretation of events.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 02:20 am
@slkshock7,
You are arguing that because the unions represent the top corporate donors, they are the hugest resident evil. You ignore that you are comparing all unions to a list of individual corporations, and you ignore that your own source shows that the top four Republican PACs spent more than 90 million dollars on the 2010 election alone. You're playing a numbers game with the data from the source you have provided, playing it badly, and attempting to make a claim which those numbers don't in fact support. You are contradicted by your own source. Don't talk to me about substance when you can't even accurately characterize what is given by your own source.

parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 08:11 am
@Setanta,
I wondered about the same thing...

Comparing the UAW in total to Ford is not the same thing as comparing the UAW in total to all companies that have UAW workers.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 11:18 am
@parados,
Well, that's one of the commonest means by which people attempt to manipulate statistics. If one were comparing unions to corporations in terms of political donations, it is only meaningful if one compares all corporate donations to all union donations. That's not what shellshock wants to discuss.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 12:30 pm
@Setanta,
And you seem to be suggesting that, to be fair we should compare a small subset of Democratic donors (the unions) to some unidentified subset of Republican donors. I'm game, which subset would you suggest?

I was simply using data from Open Secrets. To that end, I used all the data they provided...i.e., the top 140 "heavy hitters", the top 20 PACs, and the top 100 individuals. In each and every case the Dems were favored in terms of dollars received and influence bought. You argue that I'm twisting statistics. If I am, it is unintentional and I urge you to show me some countervailing statistics.

Perhaps a one-on-one comparison is in order...let's look at the UAW contributions versus the contributions made by the Companies they work for (GM and Ford...I know there are others but Open Secrets doesn't have data on these other companies, so any contributions they make must be relatively small). From 1989-2010, the UAW contributed $26.6M to the Democratic Party (nothing to the Republicans). In contrast, over the same time period GM and Ford combined gave $11M to the Republicans and $7M to the Dems. So clearly this union, at least, has bought far more political influence then the owners and executives of the companies you condemn.

As for the $90M donated by the top 4 Republican PACs, I don't question that, but point out that two unions alone donated $94M for the 2010 election. I suppose it might be fair to compare the top 4 unions against the top 4 Republican PACs, but obviously there is no need.

As I said before, I'm willing to consider your point of view but you must do more than just make broad unsubstantiated assertions. Please provide some hard-core data.

slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 12:31 pm
@parados,
Good point, Parados...please work the math and let me know how it comes out.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 12:50 pm
@RABEL222,
pretty much
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 02:39 pm
@slkshock7,
Compare union contributions to corporate contibutions. Neither, however, represennt "small subsets." Unions represent at the least tens of thousands of members, and corporations represent huge accumulations of captial. It is aslo meaningless to single out unions, while ignoring the spending of PACs, as i have already pointed out.
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 02:53 pm
@Setanta,
Ok, I'm waiting...please do so...I've already started the work by comparing UAW donations to GM/Ford and that analysis still shows that unions spend almost two and a half dollars for every dollar that their "parent" corporations spend.

One can only conclude that the unions are either far more adept at buying political influence or just more blatant at it. At this point, I think I've done enough to prove my point and it is now your turn to do a little work to prove yours.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 03:05 pm
@slkshock7,
So, you're fudging the numbers. Did you compare that to the total contributions of Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Saturn, Caterpillar, Case and everyone else that employs UAW workers?

I don't have to prove a point, i'm just disputing yours. You are playing fast and loose with the numbers. You continue to ignore the burden of PACs (all of them, not just four of them) and individual contributions. What is the proportion of union contributions as a function of all contributions? Before you allege that the unions weild undue influence, you'll have to look at the entire picture, not just some portion of it convenenient to your allegation.
Cycloptichorn
 
  5  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 04:05 pm
A joke I saw today:

Quote:
A unionized public employee, a teabagger, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, then looks at the teabagger and says “Watch out for that union guy—he wants a piece of your cookie!”


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 05:21 pm
@Setanta,
I have compared that to all contributions given by those I know employ UAW workers and whose data is shown on Open Secrets. There remains a 2.5x difference.

The fact that you continue to refuse to support your point with any hard facts discredits you.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 06:30 pm
@slkshock7,
I didn't make a "point" that i needed to support. I simply disputed yours. You mentioned Ford and GM, are those the only companies of which you know who employ UAW people? You don't know too damned much, huh?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 06:40 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I didn't make a "point" that i needed to support. I simply disputed yours. You mentioned Ford and GM, are those the only companies of which you know who employ UAW people? You don't know too damned much, huh?


A lot of people don't seem to realize that the only burden of proof lies with the maker of an affirmative statement. I get this from Okie and Ican a lot, when they ask me to prove that their position ISN'T true.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 06:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The big problem with okie is he has no clue, even after we produce evidence of what he said or implied by his posts. He dances around what he claims he meant after proof is provided. He's a lost cause without any redeeming value on a2k.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2011 06:53 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Why should capital be able to organize against unions, by buying political influence, but labor should not be afforded the same opportunity? Sauce for the goose makes sauce for the gander.


Sounds like a point to me...that I've simply disputed.
 

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