7
   

The Jewish question, what would persuade you?

 
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 06:12 pm
@dpmartin,
I dont know if it is ethical, but the law is based on revenge. Morality is based on being allowed to live. Surely both the law and morality are central to ethics ?
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 09:32 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

I dont know if it is ethical, but the law is based on revenge. Morality is based on being allowed to live. Surely both the law and morality are central to ethics ?


Yes but could it be that morals are more of a personal set of priorities that one would do this for that and not do that under any circumstances, as in what would one do under a set of circumstances?

Where as ethics is understood in the execution, and or fulfillment of an agreement between two or more. Maybe I’m incorrect here.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 10:33 am
@dpmartin,
I agree that morallity is arrived at subjectively--but that's because i don't in fact believe that morality exists. However, anyone alleging that morality does exist contradicts him- or herself by alleging that morality can be arrived at on an individual basis.
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 12:09 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I agree that morallity is arrived at subjectively--but that's because i don't in fact believe that morality exists. However, anyone alleging that morality does exist contradicts him- or herself by alleging that morality can be arrived at on an individual basis.


Setanta
thanks for the reply

Well if I may put it this way. What is in one’s own heart is the morals one has, for in certain circumstances he will do according to his heart or seek the opportunity for the fulfillment of what is in the heart. ( if I am correct, would in the context of subjectively)

But on the other hand if one agrees to something, does he do what he agrees to, or what is in his heart?

For example: if someone would say something that would in your heart want to feed him a knuckle sandwich or two or many more. Therein is your morals, what is in your heart to do. but you agree not to do that, by previously agreeing to what ever rules that apply, even if it’s agreeing to freedom of speech with out being in danger for speaking, therefore your action is ethical, not moral.

To do what is in one’s heart, is a moral issue according to one’s own heart/morals, and to do what one agrees to is an ethical issue not necessarily what is in one’s own heart, but has agreed to. Which I believe the basis of a civilized society.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 06:19 pm
The social contact is the basis of civilized society. You cannot constrain venality, greed or cupidity by appeals to people's basic "goodness."
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2011 06:25 pm
@dpmartin,
Quote:
morals are more of a personal set of priorities
Morals are certainly personal, but we are born with some, accept others from society and discard some depending on the situation. The law is based on common morality. Ethics is an attempt to determine what one should do in a given situation assuming there is an absolute correct behaviour. Only religion provides the authority for ethics, any other direction assumes authority for ethical behaviour without providing any authority.
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 06:16 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

The social contact is the basis of civilized society. You cannot constrain venality, greed or cupidity by appeals to people's basic "goodness."


Setanta
thanks for the reply

You are absolutely correct, I’m not saying some one’s morals are by default “goodness” because the individuals morals are of the heart. Some one’s morals could be quite depraved, wouldn’t you think? It would be a presumption to think some one’s morals is the same a our own. And it seems clear they are based on what is in the heart of a person. How they were assembled in the heart is another matter.

And social contact no matter how insignificant in daily events is by agreement. People on the street pass each other by without conflict, by agreement not by morals. People maintain a civil speed limit by agreement. And yes it is also agreed that there is ramifications if those agreements are not fulfilled accordingly.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 06:41 am
We're right back at the problem i had with your thesis to begin with. If it is individual, and subjective, it's not morality.

The social contract is arbitrary and tyrranical. It applies whether or not you consent in advance, and if you choose not to consent, you are literally outlawed, and take your chances. Indeed, i mentioned it because although some smarmy lip service is paid to morality in the enunciation of the law, the social contract is only ever coincidentally referential to morality.
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 09:57 am
@Ionus,
Ionus

thanks for the reply

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
morals are more of a personal set of priorities
Morals are certainly personal, but we are born with some, accept others from society and discard some depending on the situation.


To a certain extent, I would agree, but not sure if that is a blank description.

Quote:
The law is based on common morality.


There I would disagree, The law is based on the morality of the law maker or giver, if applies. If a society is ruled by a King in the traditional sense then the law is based on the morality of the King. And the society or his subjects agree that he is the agreement. If a society is like unto the U.S. Then the law is based on the morality of the law makers and the society or citizenry agrees that the Constitution is the agreement.

Quote:
Ethics is an attempt to determine what one should do in a given situation assuming there is an absolute correct behaviour. Only religion provides the authority for ethics, any other direction assumes authority for ethical behaviour without providing any authority.


I wouldn’t agree that religion is required for the knowledge of ethics, Truth is agreed to and Mercy is asked for. And if two shake hands in agreement, then what is the Truth and when is Mercy necessary?

chaz wyman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 10:58 am
@studentstrugling,
The best answer to this question was suggested by Hannah Arendt in her book the Banality of Evil, in which see pointed out how easy evil is to do - without anyone really having to take personal or emotional responsibility for it. Killing a million Jews for Eichmann was made as easy as moving one column of names one space to the right. For him, he was just following policy. For Hitler, he was responding to the historical needs of the German people, and he considered that they were giving them their support. For the man on the front line who was pulling the trigger, or releasing the gas, he was 'following orders', and knew that if he did not do it he would be harmed and replaced. Those a the frontline of the final solution were in some ways victims too - brutalised by necessity.
Now consider the banality of the innocent children crushed by tanks or falling buildings in Iraq that YOU and I sanctioned by supporting the society which started the war. We have contributed to evil, we have committed that crime, and it is all so banal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 02:05 pm
@dpmartin,
dpmartin wrote:

Well if I may put it this way. What is in one’s own heart is the morals one has, for in certain circumstances he will do according to his heart or seek the opportunity for the fulfillment of what is in the heart. ( if I am correct, would in the context of subjectively)

But on the other hand if one agrees to something, does he do what he agrees to, or what is in his heart?

For example: if someone would say something that would in your heart want to feed him a knuckle sandwich or two or many more. Therein is your morals, what is in your heart to do. but you agree not to do that, by previously agreeing to what ever rules that apply, even if it’s agreeing to freedom of speech with out being in danger for speaking, therefore your action is ethical, not moral.

To do what is in one’s heart, is a moral issue according to one’s own heart/morals, and to do what one agrees to is an ethical issue not necessarily what is in one’s own heart, but has agreed to. Which I believe the basis of a civilized society.


We have to establish definitions upon which everyone can be on the same page, as it were, to even begin tackling the question of morals. Your definition of morals doesn't jibe with the standard definition which concerns conduct and behavior. It doesn't concern feelings or thoughts.

For example, person A, out of negligence, damages person B's property. Person A could care less about the damages he's caused, but because of his moral obligations he pays recompense to person B for the damages to his property. Person A has acted morally regardless of his thoughts and feelings about the damages he's caused.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2011 04:08 pm
@dpmartin,
Quote:
If a society is ruled by a King in the traditional sense then the law is based on the morality of the King.
Not always so...there are many instances of Kings being forced to change the law.....the Magna Carta for example.
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 07:05 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

We're right back at the problem i had with your thesis to begin with. If it is individual, and subjective, it's not morality.

The social contract is arbitrary and tyrranical. It applies whether or not you consent in advance, and if you choose not to consent, you are literally outlawed, and take your chances. Indeed, i mentioned it because although some smarmy lip service is paid to morality in the enunciation of the law, the social contract is only ever coincidentally referential to morality.


Setanta

If one has the morals of the king he is in agreement with the king, and the king’s morals is his shield. In the case of a nation like the U.S. the voter is king, by the weight and measure at the ballet box. In who it shall be given charge of the king’s nation. Therefore only the king is responsible for who he chooses.
0 Replies
 
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 07:17 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
If a society is ruled by a King in the traditional sense then the law is based on the morality of the King.
Not always so...there are many instances of Kings being forced to change the law.....the Magna Carta for example.


Ionus
thanks for the reply

You are right, but there is a can of worms in that subject, I was using the example of the “traditional sense” where as it was once agreed that the King was the undisputed agent of God to a nation or kingdom. And how that agreed power was to be administered in a kingdom was changed in the case you mention. It was only in hope of illustrating a point, not an examination of historical facts.
0 Replies
 
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2011 09:30 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue
thanks for the reply

InfraBlue wrote:


We have to establish definitions upon which everyone can be on the same page, as it were, to even begin tackling the question of morals. Your definition of morals doesn't jibe with the standard definition which concerns conduct and behavior. It doesn't concern feelings or thoughts.


I can understand your point about feelings or thought, but if conduct and behavior has nothing to do with that. Then what is the result of envy, jealousy, rage, and anger? If one has these things in his heart and is encouraged to think about these things that are in the person’s heart, to the point where the person entertains it until he responds, does conduct and behavior apply? Isn’t the conduct and behavior the result thereof?


Quote:
For example, person A, out of negligence, damages person B's property. Person A could care less about the damages he's caused, but because of his moral obligations he pays recompense to person B for the damages to his property. Person A has acted morally regardless of his thoughts and feelings about the damages he's caused.




If a man cares, then how does he feel about it? If he don’t care then how does he feel about it?

But if A cares he will make it right with B whether the law is involved or not. But if A doesn’t care. Then it will most likely be the authority of the law to enforce compensation, or even the threat thereof. A, going by his own morals not necessarily in agreement with the right of B to be compensated for the lose of, or damage to property. Where as A’s morals could simply be he values his freedom, or what he possess more then what would be necessary for the compensation to B, and still does not care a hoot, about B or B’s property.

And what could it be that A would care about, if he would of made it right with B without encouragement of possible ramifications?

Honest I am not trying to create more gray area, clarity between, or what is, morals and ethics, would be great, and I agree it is of value and it is worth the contemplation thereof. I am not trying to throw dents into what you have said, I am just trying to use it.

0 Replies
 
 

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