15
   

Huckabee and Israel

 
 
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 11:05 pm
There are four possible resolutions to the Israel-Palestinian outcome.

1) The two state solution. This is the common plan for peace where Palestinians get some part of the West Bank and Gaza, and the Israel gets the rest of the area.

This means a compromise of land and each side to give up something. But it leaves Palestinians in the land and maintains a majority Jewish state (which is important for many people).

2) Simple Democracy. You could let people who are living in the area remain as equals. Give everyone full citizenship and equal power. Have elections and run the country fairly.

Of course this ruins the idea of a Jewish controlled state. The fact is that the majority of people in the area controlled by Israel are of Arab (not Jewish) descent.

If you think a Jewish state is essential, then you are opposed to real Democracy in this case.

3) Ethnic cleansing. If you want a real democracy, but with a Jewish majority, you are going to have to get rid of millions of people.

Of course the problem with this is that you are getting rid of people who have been living in the land a long time. No one questions that there were Arabs living in Palestine since before Europeans first showed up in America.

Forced removal of people from land they have inhabited for centuries is a rather uncomfortable idea to many modern minds.

4) A system of Apartheid. Of course, if the idea of ethnic cleansing is too ugly for you, you could say that these people can stay, but not be citizens. You could set of a two tiered society where people of Jewish descent could vote, own land or whatever privilege you get from being in power.

Of course, no one would recognize a society where rights were determined by ethnicity as a modern democracy.

Now comes Huckabee on the topic...

Quote:

The evangelical minister and Fox News host said Jews should be allowed to settle anywhere throughout the biblical Land of Israel - an area that includes the West Bank and east Jerusalem.

He called the demand on Israel to give up land for peace an "unrealistic, unworkable and unreachable goal."

Most of the international community - including President Barack Obama - considers Jewish settlements in the West Bank and east Jerusalem illegal because they are built on occupied land Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war. The Palestinians claim both areas for a future state.

Huckabee suggested that a Palestinian state were to be established, it shouldn't come at Israel's expense.

"There are vast amounts of territory that are in the hands of Muslims, in the hands of Arabs. Maybe the international community can come together and accommodate," he said in a meeting with reporters.


It looks like he is going with Ethnic cleansing. It seems to me this is the worst of all the options.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/01/ap/middleeast/main7305539.shtml
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 06:16 am
@maxdancona,
Huck is genuine; but not too terribly bright, and no different from a lot of people in the God or broadcasting business who can state opinions without bothering to follow their train of reasoning to its inevitable train wreck... Now; you have to understand that very often the Jewish tail of money wags the American Political dog... They have the money, and they have the perception of the public of life's victims... They have their own direct influence in the media; so with this being a quasi free country, why should they not have influence???...

Churchill decided a long time ago to deny the Palastinians a vote when it is certain they would have voted all the Zionists to New York.. His long and enduring friendship with Barnard Barouch may have played a part in his decision; but from our perspective, this is an old problem which is really the solution to an older problem of too many Jews in too many countries dominating events with their superior intelligence and cohesion as a people...

I simply do not believe we are under any moral obligation to support their criminality.. Instead of letting them dirty up this country and destroying our democracy, let them stand alone and show their true character to the world... The difference between an elite and a minority is which way the guns are pointed... That may be the difference between vice and virtue as well...
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 11:27 am
@maxdancona,
Yours is a very good assessment of the situation in Palestine, max.

Unfortunately, for most of the supporters of Israel, a majority Jewish state is the bottom line, and the best outcome for this scenario is a "two state solution" that would involve the official ghettoization of the Palestinian peoples into mega concentration camps permanently walled off and strictly controlled by Israel. The present Israeli government has stated its support for this kind of solution.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 01:49 pm
@Fido,
Yeah, but Huck is much brighter than O boy.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 02:26 pm
@maxdancona,
There is a better chance of #3 and #4 than #2.

No Israeli leader is going to agree to the conversion of Israel from a Jewish state to a Palestinian state with a Jewish minority.

It's just not going to happen.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 03:51 pm
@maxdancona,
Huckabee is more influenced by the Christian Fundamentalists who believe in the Second Coming of Jesus who will appear when Israel is once again resurrected as per the "fig tree" interpretation and then the Jews will pay for refusing Jesus.
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 04:47 pm
Mike Huckabee is a genius! He sees the truth and is willing and able to say it.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 04:54 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

Yeah, but Huck is much brighter than O boy.
Perhaps... But judging from the people I know, it takes more to pass the bar than to become a minister... And like him or not, and I don't much care for anyone playing party politics, Mr. Obama is the president of at least half of the voting population...

What have I been elected to??? Not much really... I have done everything short of butt kissing to have a job and support my family.... To ask for a vote for a job I don't want and wouldn't do well is too far beneath me to reach... So I have a difficult time judging people who do so, or who think it will make a difference, or who think against all odds that they will not be corrupted by the process... As far as brights go; I can't say... As far as morals or imagination goes, I hold my opinions dear.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2011 04:57 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:

Mike Huckabee is a genius! He sees the truth and is willing and able to say it.
To make such a judgement, would you not also need the same ability, and have courage of character as well, for who knows the truth who does not act upon it is a hypocrite... Only uncertainty keeps me as slow and pokey as I am... Think of how dangerous I might be in actual possession of the truth...
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 08:34 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
...very often the Jewish tail of money wags the American Political dog...
Given I assume you sincerely believe this "very often..." nonsense, I expect you can provide demonstrable evidence.
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2011 09:05 am
@Chumly,
Chumly wrote:

Fido wrote:
...very often the Jewish tail of money wags the American Political dog...
Given I assume you sincerely believe this "very often..." nonsense, I expect you can provide demonstrable evidence.
Nope; and don't expect me to bother... If you see it you see it and if you do not, then no amount of evidence is sufficient...

When I was young, the United States gave state of Israel ten million dollars a day in aid, even when doing so brought us into conflict with every Muslim country in the region... Now; do you think we ever gained ten million dollars a day in benefit from that activity??? Do you believe that American Jews ever gave ten million dollars on any day to any politician or all of them put together to reap for Israel that reward???

Buying the affections of politicians is the best investment anyone or any group can make because as long as it does not go against the grain to support some poor group of victims like Israel, a pittance invested can reap millions upon millions... That is our money, money that tax paying, hard working people pay for the goods of government that they are long denied... To see it go to a people for whom all but intellectual activity is beneath, who keep themselves apart and look at us as inferior with demonstrable evidence since we cannot combine against them to stop their control and legal pilfering of the treasury and bankrupting of the population is painful; but they will kill this country having no more sense than a tapeworm or a louse or more ability to show restraint...

I will not say that Jews do no good, but we find that other Semites and Muslims generally have fine enough minds... I would love to see their levels of intelligence general in the population, but our traditional forms which lay us open to use, abuse and exploitation by the intelligent, and actively inhibit our access to education is making people of European and Christian origins the true victims... Whatever Huckabee says about Israel based upon the Bible is misguided... Protestantism was not the victory of Christianity and the repudiation of Catholicism; but it was the Victory of Judaism in another form... Those people accept what Jesus never said, that the blessing of God is shown in a tangible fashion... When you need profit to show you are blessed, then you seek profit rather than God...As one man's profit is another's loss, no one will find God through profit, but so long as we are a nation in search of profit we will not find peace either...

I have been shown no good reason why the United States should support the claims of the State of Israel against the will of the people of that area, most of whom are Muslims... It is for the minority, just like the majority to get along, and make peace, and throughout that region, the Jews have been worse criminals than the Muslims, but the Muslims being deprived of their land had better right on their side... Now we are over there fighting their war for nothing, no return, no profit, no gain of peace, no good reason at all, and breaking our bank while they reap millions... Do you think they provide even a fraction equal to half of their part in the population to fight wars from which they alone benefit??? They are too smart for that...

I would bet there are a greater percentage of American Muslims fighting their Muslim brothers than there are Jews... But it is just a guess, really... I will ask my kid... He is Jewish, and rather good with computers... But he is a bankruptcy attorney, and very busy... I mean; that he is very busy helping people to salvage something from their lives after they have been bled almost to the point of slavery and prostration which most of them would agree to, perhaps, if given a choice in the matter, since they must certainly doubt their own ability to control their own affairs if they can be so easily cleaned out of all they have worked for -on faith...
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2011 11:31 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
Chumly wrote:
Fido wrote:
...very often the Jewish tail of money wags the American Political dog...
Given I assume you sincerely believe this "very often..." nonsense, I expect you can provide demonstrable evidence.
Nope; and don't expect me to bother...
In that case your claim has no substantiation and is unworthy of consideration; it's specious, anti-Semitic drivel.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2011 07:01 pm
@Chumly,
Chumly wrote:

Fido wrote:
Chumly wrote:
Fido wrote:
...very often the Jewish tail of money wags the American Political dog...
Given I assume you sincerely believe this "very often..." nonsense, I expect you can provide demonstrable evidence.
Nope; and don't expect me to bother...
In that case your claim has no substantiation and is unworthy of consideration; it's specious, anti-Semitic drivel.


Amen.

How have we found ourselves in a place where thinly disguised anti-Semitism can be bandied about by people who claim the mantle of educated if not intellectual?

German intellectual anti-Semites, of yore, thought they too were far more than the peasants who believed Jews had horns.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2011 07:02 pm
Oh Lord, never choose me or my people!
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  5  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2011 08:59 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
How is it anti-Semitic to note the influence of the Israeli lobby on American politics?

Maybe Fido didn't have substantiation for it but I certainly could substantiate that for him if he isn't interested. It's one of the most powerful lobbies in the United States (nearly on par with the gun lobby) and this is demonstrable.

How is it anti-Semitic to point out the obvious: that there is a very strong pro-Israel lobby in American politics?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2011 10:02 pm
@Robert Gentel,
It is not anti-Semitic to note an influence of the Israeli lobby on American politics.

It is anti-Semitic to froth out the mouth on how such a lobby controls American foreign policy.

This is the historic path of anti-Semitisim:

"Hey, the Jews do love gold and silver, and so it's logical to suspect them of trying to control Europe's economy."

A people persecuted for thousands of years will develop coping mechanisms which their persecutors will argue prove the argument of their perfidy.

How ironic, sad and disgusting it is that the world's greatest underdogs, the Jews, are now perceived, by the folks who claim to champion underdogs the world round, not worthy of their support.

Hollow sanctimony.



cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2011 10:21 pm
@maxdancona,
I guess Huckabee is a "no" vote from me.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  3  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2011 10:23 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Code:How ironic, sad and disgusting it is that the [quote]world's greatest underdogs[/quote], the Jews, are now perceived, by the folks who claim to champion underdogs the world round, not worthy of their support.
how bizarre
dlowan
 
  5  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2011 07:27 am
@dyslexia,
Depends on what the Jews in question happen to be doing.

If they are oppressing others and being idiotically stupid about both reasonable humanity (and their own long-term interests in the case of Zionists) I don't think being Jewish means you have an infinite pass for being an arsehole because of history.

In fact that's an especially insidious irrationality...that victims cannot be persecutors.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2014 09:20 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
There are four possible resolutions to the Israel-Palestinian outcome.

Agreed.


maxdancona wrote:
1) The two state solution. This is the common plan for peace where Palestinians get some part of the West Bank and Gaza, and the Israel gets the rest of the area.

This means a compromise of land and each side to give up something. But it leaves Palestinians in the land and maintains a majority Jewish state (which is important for many people).

This is preferred. But unfortunately, Palestinians are evil scumbags who refuse to make peace. This makes #1 impossible to achieve.


maxdancona wrote:
2) Simple Democracy. You could let people who are living in the area remain as equals. Give everyone full citizenship and equal power. Have elections and run the country fairly.

Of course this ruins the idea of a Jewish controlled state. The fact is that the majority of people in the area controlled by Israel are of Arab (not Jewish) descent.

If you think a Jewish state is essential, then you are opposed to real Democracy in this case.

#2 is never going to happen.


maxdancona wrote:
3) Ethnic cleansing. If you want a real democracy, but with a Jewish majority, you are going to have to get rid of millions of people.

Of course the problem with this is that you are getting rid of people who have been living in the land a long time. No one questions that there were Arabs living in Palestine since before Europeans first showed up in America.

Forced removal of people from land they have inhabited for centuries is a rather uncomfortable idea to many modern minds.

I'm very comfortable with it. Pack all the Palestinian scum up in buses and drive them all to their new home in Gaza.

This option is far preferable to #2 and #4.


maxdancona wrote:
4) A system of Apartheid. Of course, if the idea of ethnic cleansing is too ugly for you, you could say that these people can stay, but not be citizens. You could set of a two tiered society where people of Jewish descent could vote, own land or whatever privilege you get from being in power.

Of course, no one would recognize a society where rights were determined by ethnicity as a modern democracy.

No thanks. #3 is much better.


maxdancona wrote:
Now comes Huckabee on the topic...

Quote:
The evangelical minister and Fox News host said Jews should be allowed to settle anywhere throughout the biblical Land of Israel - an area that includes the West Bank and east Jerusalem.

He called the demand on Israel to give up land for peace an "unrealistic, unworkable and unreachable goal."

Most of the international community - including President Barack Obama - considers Jewish settlements in the West Bank and east Jerusalem illegal because they are built on occupied land Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war. The Palestinians claim both areas for a future state.

Huckabee suggested that a Palestinian state were to be established, it shouldn't come at Israel's expense.

"There are vast amounts of territory that are in the hands of Muslims, in the hands of Arabs. Maybe the international community can come together and accommodate," he said in a meeting with reporters.

It looks like he is going with Ethnic cleansing. It seems to me this is the worst of all the options.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/01/ap/middleeast/main7305539.shtml

Nah. It is one of the best options, second only to #1.
 

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