Who's evil: The gunman or politician?

@kendallscrnp8hrj,

A couple points if I may. We are not forcing, because an individual does not have to look at this forum. The don't have to look at our posts. People do it on a daily basis. I am on guard 24/7. that's prob. why I feel the way I do. I see tyranny everywhere. You said try to dictate? The government has dictated to you. They tell you have to wear a seat belt, buy health insurance, have a certain size toilet, certain kind of light bulb(coming soon), and of course mandatory retirement plan through the SSA. You do have to listen to them or they arrest you. That doesn't make us weak-minded- it means that we are at a point in American history that will decide the future of this nation.

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@DrDick,

So you and your employer choose to send money to the social security administration?

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@Warlock13,

Have you ever considered a species evolves together? That through cooperation/collaboration a species is better off as a whole and evolves further and faster than a bunch of individuals?

If are looking towards evolution as your justification, a reason you as an individual are being held back, then consider caveman became cavemen, then became a clan, that cooperated to become a tribe, eventually a village, etc. They evolved together and split up roles to best utilize resources. It was not survival of the fittest via individualism, it was survival of the collective. You think they were "free" able to help whomever they wanted, whenever the wanted, and in whatever way the wanted?

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@Warlock13,

Do I choose to send money to SSA? Well, I choose to live in society. Luckily I was born into a society that allows me to vote, that doesn't force me to have an arranged marriage, that provides opportunity for me to make change, that allows me to go on a forum and discuss issues with people such as yourself without fear. I have the option to leave this society and go live among another society if I so choose. You have that choice as well, but it would not matter, because given your world view, there is no society that exists where you would not be unhappy about your lack of freedom, the requirement that in some way shape or form you had to help others not of your choosing.

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@DrDick,

No i don't lean on evolution. I actually acknowledge the existence of god and creation. However, I should point out that Charles Darwin wrote that the best "individuals" reproduce and flourish. Collectives are by choice not force, the presence of a large group people in a geographic location;existing together, does not obligate them each other. Any caveman could walk away at anytime. He may die but that is his CHOICE. From a biblical outlook. you started with a family, sure you help each other by CHOICE; any family member can walk away at any time. Even at present time, cooperation should be a CHOICE. We were created/evolved to reason, and in that reason comes a CHOICE.

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@Warlock13,

posting our thoughts for others to read is forcing our opinions towards others, I wear my seat belt for safety did that before it became mandatory and they only became mandatory after a hell of a lot of unnecessary deaths and with the help from a lot of crash test dummies (I think we call them men) health insurance is not mandatory would be nice to have it would save me some money, toilets have you ever had to pay a water bill? can't wait for better light bulbs save energy/money and there are a lot of people who won't ever get SSA and no I don't have to listen to them SSA is falling apart anyway, most of the things that you mentioned help people, and politics had nothing to do with people coming up with more efficient products like light bulbs and toilets or any modern item, none of what you mentioned was ever thought up by a politician, they don't care if we save money on our water or electric bill, they are not concerned about our safety when were in our cars, it's the average citizens who have brought about these things.

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@DrDick,

I'm sure there's an island in the pacific. Smile

I don't mind the USA. I love it actually. My only complaint is that we have become a nation dependent on collective problem solving. To everyone wondering: I am not a member of the tea party-I find them to be hypocrites, as most have made or are making their money off of government spending.

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@kendallscrnp8hrj,

average citizens do not pass legislation. The items were not invented by politicians, but politicians felt the need to involve themselves. My water bill is not the governments business, so if I choose to buy and energy efficient toilet okay, but to force me to buy one is a violation of my right to be inefficient.- (unsafe, unhealthy, ever hear of medicare) . We are not forcing. anyone can nav. from this page at anytime or they can overlook either of our posts.

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@Warlock13,

Who votes for the politicians, you would be happy in Ashland Oregon with all the dirty smelly non bathing hippies, or just get yourself an out-house, I looked online, politicians and toilets no connection like I said before they don't care about **** like that, a dog gets hit by a car, it's real nasty and bloody, we're going to look you know why? because being humans we cant help it, just like our posts, and just exactly what are you really afraid of, don't deny it, your posts make it obvious>

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@Warlock13,

Thanks for using good ole Charles to prove my point. What do you think it means that the best "individuals" reproduce and flourish? How do they reproduce except in a collective? And what happens to the "best" individuals? They become the chief of the tribe or the alpha male of the herd. Tribe and herd are both collectives. The best individual does not act in isolation, nor are they considered the best if they are not part of the collective. In fact, they must make CHOICES that allow them to navigate and negotiate the challenges presented as being part of the collective in order to become the chief and have the best chances of reproducing/flourishing. They are not capable of flourishing in isolation.

You are correct, most anyone (except those that cannot care for themselves) can make a CHOICE up to and including suicide to ensure they are not "forced" to do anything they don't want to do. The fact is you are not being forced to buy health care, you have a CHOICE you can leave the clan, go to your island, and suffer a lesser ability to reproduce and flourish. If you leave you will never be the chief or any important member of the clan. On the other hand you can choose to live with the clan, but that means you must accept that not every decision will be one that you like and that to live, navigate, and become an "individual" with higher evolutionary potential it means you may have to accept being in your words forced to accept a few things of which you are not in favor.

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@Warlock13,

Quote:

...I see tyranny everywhere. You said try to dictate? The government has dictated to you. They tell you have to wear a seat belt, buy health insurance, have a certain size toilet, certain kind of light bulb(coming soon), and of course mandatory retirement plan through the SSA. You do have to listen to them or they arrest you.

Hmmm .... you don't think you're a wee bit paranoid, do you? Wink

Fancy that!: in America they'll arrest you if you have the wrong light bulb! Surprised

Now there's a precious right worth fighting for!

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@DrDick,

DrDick wrote:

You are incorrect. The politician did not force anything as the politician was elected.
People voted for that politician.

Your logic is poor.
The fact of her election is irrelevant
to her participation in the FORCING to buy.
She was free to vote against it,
or to abstain from voting against the Constitution.

David

1 Reply

Warlock13 wrote:

No i don't lean on evolution. I actually acknowledge the existence of god and creation.
However, I should point out that Charles Darwin
wrote that the best "individuals" reproduce and flourish.

U Capitalize Darwin, but not God??

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@OmSigDAVID,

My logic is anything but poor. To state an "election is irrelevant" is illogical. A representative is exactly that, a representative of the people for the people. It is perfectly logical to state an elected representative is not making a free choice, but the choice of those that elected said representative. To make a choice against those that elected you would be illogical. You think it is logical for an elected representative to go against those that elected them?

Playing the semantic game of how the constitution is worded is fine, go ahead, that is why there are amendments to the constitution. The constitution is a living document.

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@Warlock13,

Warlock13 wrote:

The Arizona gunman, was a man of action. (Good or Bad still action). Many Americans talk about how corrupt and evil their government is, but few do more than protest and add a bumper sticker to their car. This young man took action. ( Good or Bad). Am I sympathetic to the gunman? No. Am I sympathetic to the politician? No. The politician decided she had the right to force every American to buy something (health care bill). The gunman decided he had the right to take her life. While I show no sympathy for either party, I am inclined to argue the politician's actions were more evil than the gunmans....

If you believe that voting for a bill which forced people to buy insurance is worse than murdering and maiming innocent bystanders, then you are a dangerous, sick bastard, and I pity you.

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@Warlock13,

Warlock13 wrote:

I am still probably considered "young", but I still know that socialism and insurance is the path to slavery.

So you're against socialised medicine and against private insurance? That does not make sense. How would you propose that young people without means pay for medical care in the case of severe accidents?

Quote:

By the way, do some research into insurance, it is a form of socialism.

No, it is an integral part of capitalism. A private company sells you financial security by agreeing to indemnify you for your financial losses if something bad happens. In many ways the insurance mechanism serves as an alternative to socialism, because it offers us a way of making our lives less risky without government telling us all how much risk we should have in our lives.

Quote:

Who's evil: The gunman or politician?

The gunman. No sane person should even have to ask that question.

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@Warlock13,

Warlock13 wrote:

The politician forced her opinion and legislation on everyone. Supporters and non-supporters. She voted. That's individual responsibility. Don't forget in America we are individuals.... A politician is an individual and is responsible for their own actions without regard to their supporters. The politician is elected, but you may have noticed they do alot of things without even informing the populus, or considering the rights of people who do not support them. They also make decisions before and after elections. That doesn't give their districts many options. Impeachment is too slow to stop a politician's actions.

They had the option of voting Giffords out of office. She won re-election to a third term, albeit narrowly. And one does not impeach someone for voting in a way one disagrees with, just like one doesn't kill for that reason.

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@Warlock13,

Warlock13 wrote:

This is America. Your problems are not my problems. My problems are not your problems. No one should have the right to force public interest onto any individual. In America there are no public interests, or at least there aren't suppose to be. This is suppose to be Darwin's country( according to liberals). Every individual is responsible for themselves. Remember if you are obligated to people you have not chosen to be, YOU ARE NOT FREE. I am still probably considered "young", but I still know that socialism and insurance is the path to slavery. By the way, do some research into insurance, it is a form of socialism. Therfore it cannot( and will not) be the solution to capitialist healthcare.

Yes; America is supposed to be the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, not the slave.

David

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@DrDick,

DrDick wrote:

Again you are incorrect, my problem may very well be your problem, your problem may also very well be my problem. It is called a society. To each their own is a naive philosophy. It doesn't work.

THAT is America; that is how it is intended.
Liberals try to pervert that.

I say:
"Every man for himself
and let the devil take the hindmost."

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@OmSigDAVID,

Wrong again...

"We must hang together or assuredly we shall hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin (just in case you don't know he signed the consitution). So America was never intended to be every man for himself.

1 Reply

Who's evil: The gunman or politician?

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