26
   

Does reading make us wiser?

 
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:14 am
@iclearwater,
iceclearwater wrote:
There's a preposition- You need to socialise which implies I don't socialise. How does the speaker know that?

As a note, nowhere in your post do you say 'I do not need to socialise', nor 'I get out and socialise enough', so I do hope this conversation isn't over it being accurate, but you wanting to deny its accuracy.

That said, on to your question:
iceclearwater wrote:

-I become a book addict now,
- because books bring me fasincating knowledge and meanwhile make me its slave
- My to-be-read book list is as long as my arm. That is not supposed to be.
- I want to spend the upcoming next year on the books I most want to read in my life so far,
There's enough in there to cause many people some concern.

Quote:
I don't agree everyone needs to socialise.

You talk about all the psychology books you are reading in order to understand yourself, and other people. This means you must have a drive to socialise, or you wouldn't feel the desire to understand others.

Why then do you quote an infintesimally small % of people who arguably, did not need to socialise. There are always exceptions to any 'everyone' (have you looked up the Bell Curve yet?), but it achieves little to talk about the exceptions, because you would be qualifying everything you said. So let's just say that 99% of people need to socialise.

In which case, can you not see why CI's concern was phrased as it was?

I will note again, that nowhere have you said you socialise enough.

Quote:
I don't mean to be condescending, and I appreciate people's concerns as you do if the concern doesn't sound like you need to do something or not do soemthing on the basis of prepositon or assumption.
I'm glad you don't mean to be condescending.

It appears though, that you missed the major point - that appreciation isn't determined by the second. It's determined by intent. And people seldom like their good intentions being dismissed out of hand.

And even if the intent were bad - I have never met a person, no matter the circumstances, and no matter what they had done, who likes being disrespected. In such cases, firmness with respect is possible.

Quote:
I just seriously want to know how he knows what I need


Let me put it another way. If CI had said 'while reading all those books, don't forget to get out and socialise', would you still have objected?

The hangup on the word 'need' is misplaced. Need in English is not always used in the absolute.

You're in a public forum. People will use words loosely. They will make judgement calls, from the little information they have. You are likely to turn helpful people away if you jump down their throat for such things.

Another response you could have used was:
- 'Why do you say that?'. He may then have offered clarity to his thought; or
- Thanks. I get out plenty, I just like reading.
iclearwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:18 am
@vikorr,
May I tell another thing I am trying to tell you which I later figure out, but I don't find the right opportunity, but it just keeps in my mind?

The thoughts of peole are very different.
You think: A----->B

I think:
#1 A---->B---->C
or
#2 A---->C

On the thread titled Help: Please Let Me Know How You Phrase Your Words., you told me I didn't fully understand what they said.

I said to myself, "Why do you keep telling me something I have already known".

Later I finally figured out the problem this that you assumed I didn't know the rout from A to B. And you didn't realise when I reach B, I was still trying to see if I could reach C.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:28 am
@iclearwater,
No, I explained why you didn't fully comprehend what you were writing about. You just didn't understand what I was talking about.

Let me try another way:

You seem to believe that intellectual understanding is understanding. To put in in terms you would understand - intellectual understanding is a Map.

However, that map then has to be applied to either ourselves, or other people...

... there is also emotional understanding, and instinctual understanding (perhaps like having an Aerial Photograph, a Topographic Map, and a Street Map). When all 3 are in alignment, you start coming to a 'fairly reliable map' understanding, but it is still just a map.

It is highly likely that we never achieve a full understanding of either ourselves, or other people.

In general terms, you have an intellectual understanding of NLP, but not an emotional on (nor instinctive one). The lack of emotional understanding showed up in the words you chose (and how you phrased the questions) for the sense/touch group of people in your questionaire.

0 Replies
 
iclearwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:54 am
@vikorr,
All what I want to said is don't take the words at its face values.

The some expressions of mine you listed are exaggerated, some are just idiomatic.

If I say the books are [email protected], that doesn't exactly they are [email protected] But they are worthless, bad quality.

In my native language, I would also literally say, "Oh, I love it to death". However no one here would said, "I am going to commit suicide". It just refers to I liked it very much.

You've overly read between my words too much at its face value. I do have my social life, so please don't worry about.

If you didn't pinpoint out how you read my words, I didn't realise my throwaway comments would leave such an impression to you guys, and raise your concern. Therefore, I was asking how speaker knows "I need to socialise". This is communication between us. Why does it sound wrong /condescending to your ears? Again, I don't lie to you in order to save my face or ego. I seriously hope you understand this because I don't have to lie to you, especially lie to myself and deceit myself.

I didn't understand the logic of CI. If he said, "Oh, don't let book make you slaves, that's bad". I would understand his concern, and appreciate that, and I would explain, "Oh, I was kinda of being exaggerated."

vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 01:09 am
@iclearwater,
Quote:
I do have my social life, so please don't worry about.
Saying that at the start would have avoided a lengthy conversation, would it not?
iclearwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 01:15 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
Saying that at the start would have avoided a lengthy conversation, would it not?


Please the thoughts just popped up. How could I know that my question would cause the issue I didn't expect?

If people don't overly intrepret my words at their face values, that would be okay.

But if there's any misunderstanding, I think it is great to communicate and finally clarify.

This thread also helps me how to understand people with different cultures, mindset. I guess it might be helpful to you when you read my words.

So, what does it harm? I guess no.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 01:24 am
@iclearwater,
Quote:
How could I know that my question would cause the issue I didn't expect?
Hmmm...by understanding that people don't like having their good intentions dismissed out of hand, and that some people like others to be polite?

Quote:
If people don't overly intrepret my words at their face values, that would be okay.
What you think is face value, is at times very obviously different to what others see as face value.
iclearwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 01:24 am
@vikorr,
Why would I ask CI such a question? I suddenly realise:

I am very much affected by the book named the Structure of Magic by Bandler and Grinder.

There are pretty examples/exercise listed by the authors about mind reading.

e.g. He doesn't like me.
e.g. He hate me.

In the book, the author would respond, "How do you think so" something like that.

For handwriting analysis, you commented a person is a little bit lazy.

I asked you, "lazy about what". ---The question was also affected by them.

If you ever read this book, you would understand why I would think so.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 01:29 am
@iclearwater,
Quote:
If you ever read this book, you would understand why I would think so.
I would perhaps understand why you could think so...but I would wonder why you didn't make up your own mind.

Look around you, everything any psychologist has ever written about arises out of patterns in human behaviour / speech / thought (medical patterns are the field of psychiatrists). Most are observable for yourself, so that you can make up your own mind as to the models usefulness.
iclearwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 01:35 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
Hmmm...by understanding that people don't like having their good intentions dismissed out of hand, and that some people like others to be polite?

That's impolite, but I would clarify I didn't dismiss people's good intention.

I just asked how he knows. --But you intrepreted I was condescending. Now you wrongly intrepreted again that I dismissed his good intention. May I ask you it is polite or reasonable if when you said I was condescending?

I'm unhappy about the way people talked to me "need to", "should do", because I am not a three-year old who need to being tutoed. This is how I felt . I recognise people's good intention. The two different issues.

Quote:
What you think is face value, is very obviously different to what others see as face value.

So, it is necessary for communication. That's why I was asking.

What you think the words are about concern are different to what I see as the face value. I read about the concern, and also read as an instruction.

First I wanted to verify the preposition and his thoughts.
Second, I hope we communicate in a way that both of us are comfortable.
we = CI + me
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 01:49 am
@iclearwater,
Quote:
That's impolite
You asked a question. I see no 'nicer' way to answer that question. If you have, one, please suggest it.

Quote:
I just asked how he knows
This is not what you said to CI, it is missing the first half of the sentence, and it is the first part leading into your question that (together) made it condescending.

Quote:
I'm unhappy about the way people talked to me "need to", "should do", because I am not a three-year old who need to being tutoring.
'Need to' is a very commonly used phrase in English. It rarely evokes the level of reaction.

Quote:
I recognise people's good intention. The two different issues.
True, although the issue I mentioned was about appreciation / respect, which comes after recognition.
iclearwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 01:49 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
I would perhaps understand why you could think so...but I would wonder why you didn't make up your own mind.

Sorry, "why you didn't make up your own mind".
This is very obviously mind-reading again and it is your own assumption.

(I tell you this calmly without hostility, but believe it or not. I realise if a person doesn't like or trust another person too much, they would likely misintrepret everything. So trustness is the basis of the sincere communication. Or I think it is a waste of time for us. You can judge me, so does I. But judging only makes sense to each of us, actually judging makes little sense to me without verification. I can judge but meanwhile I need verification.)

I strongly recommend people to read "the Structure of Magic", especially you, because you dabble it and doesn't resist NLP.


Quote:
Look around you, everything any psychologist has ever written about arises out of patterns in human behaviour / speech / thought (medical patterns are the field of psychiatrists). Most are observable for yourself, so that you can make up your own mind as to the models usefulness.

I would say you observed too much, read between the lines too much. For too much, I mean "inaccurate". Your assumptions or portraits about me are wrong. Sorry.
iclearwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 02:01 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
You asked a question. I see no 'nicer' way to answer that question. If you have, one, please suggest it.

What question?

Quote:
'Need to' is a very commonly used phrase in English. It rarely evokes the level of reaction.

English is not my native language. Even it is my native language, if the expression makes me uncomfortable, I think it is reasonable to request my correspondent not to say in such a way. If I make other people feel uncomfortable, I would adjust my way of communication.

I simply asked a neutral question and especially added a smiley of smile later with edition. I wanted to know what makes him think so.

I don't think it is wrong.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 02:04 am
@iclearwater,
Quote:
This is very obviously mind-reading again
No
Quote:
and it is your own assumption.
Yes

Quote:
I realise if a person doesn't like or trust another person too much, they would likely misintrepret everything
More accurately, certain things particular areas, usually related to motivation. I don't see why you think ongoing motivational misinterpretation applies here.

Assumptions on the other hand, are quite frequently made by everyone, myself, and yourself included. They are done in the absence of information, and are posited to herald back to caveman days when fight or flight meant one had to make quick decisions based on scant information. The theory goes that the ability to make assumptions was a essential survival mechanism for early humans.


vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 02:10 am
@iclearwater,
Quote:
What question?
The one asked in this link.
Quote:
English is not my native language. Even it is my native language, if the expression makes me uncomfortable, I think it is reasonable to request my correspondent not to say in such a way.
Yep. Never said it wasn't. I even suggested alternate responses.

Quote:
If I make other people feel uncomfortable, I would adjust my way of communication.
Are you going to?
0 Replies
 
iclearwater
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 02:13 am
@vikorr,
"why you didn't make up your own mind".

Yes, you did- mind reading all the time, and without my verification.

You overly intrepretted my words condescending.
You claimed I didn't make up my own mind.
You overly intrepretted my words "slaves", "as long as arm".

My, you sound like a psychic, or you live in my pocket. But it is up to you.

Life is short. Don't intend to fight. I have clarified myself. Take it or leave it. Excuse me.
iclearwater
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 02:31 am
To CI:
I would like to clarify myself as below:

- I didn't realise my words would probably sound unfriendly to you as some forum fellows pointed out. In order not to be misunderstood by you, I especially add a smiley of smile after editing. Or did it make sense for me to do so?

- In case, my wording makes you uncomfortable any way, please accept my apology. I wil try to avoid in such a way, but I cannot sure if any of my expressions would make you comfortable in the future, because English is not my native language, even if I talk to my country fellows, there might be misunderstanding. So, please just feel free to let me know if my wording sounds offensive to you, but with understanding that are differences between cultures, individuals, etc.

- My purpose of the question is seriously I wanted to verify your words and clarify myself. I wanted to know why you would say "I need to socialise". Some expressions of mine like "slave", "as long as arm" are kinda exaggerated. Please don't take it seriously.

- I honestly admit that your words about I need to do something that made me uncomfortable, as I recognise your kindness here. I hope we can communicate in a way in which both of us are happy.

You can tell me what you like and dislike; and I can tell you what I like and dislike. Is it fair or reasonable?
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 02:54 am
@iclearwater,
Quote:
Yes, you did- mind reading all the time, and without my verification.
We may have very different understandings of mind reading. I don't think it can be done.

Quote:
You overly intrepretted my words condescending.
Actually, I said your reply comes across as condescending. That is different to saying they are condescending.

Quote:
You overly intrepretted my words "slaves", "as long as arm".
Actually I said There's enough in there to cause many people some concern. That is quite different to saying I found them cause for concern, but rather, I could see how other people would find them so.

Quote:
You claimed I didn't make up my own mind.
I already said it was an assumption - no mind reading involved there at all.

Quote:
My, you sound like a psychic, or you live in my pocket.
From the above? Uh, wow.

Are you sure that forums are the right place for you to continue to learn? It is the internet. No one can know even 1/10 of you, so:
- You will get questioned by other people,
- People will offer you advice, in welcome ways, and not so welcome ways
- people will make assumptions about you.
- they are not mind readers, and they do not need to verify with you first
- it is your place to correct misinterpretations.

You seem to have difficulty with this concept. Certainly I never thought there would be so much drama over such small things.
0 Replies
 
iclearwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 03:53 am
I don't quite understand why a question of mine would kick up such a fuss. If CI is unhappy with me, he is supposed to talk to me himself, instead of other people.

I don't quite understand why my post about clarification and sincere apology to CI if there's misunderstanding or inappropriate wording to him would be voted down. I'm honest and serious to each word I wrote to CI. What on earth did the voter oppose for?

I will never know the answers, as I've decided to quit A2K for good, if this makes anyone happy.

Finally I would like to say "thank you again for the previous help, and Happy New Year" to Blickers, but I don't want to bother him/her via P.M. no matter he /she can read this message or not.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 04:15 am
@iclearwater,
I couldn't tell you why it was voted down. Why pay attention to such? Someone has been stalking my posts for years, voting my posts down - but to me, that is an indictment on them, rather than me (it seems quite nutty to me). And you certainly can't please everyone all the time.

Quote:
I don't quite understand why a question of mine would kick up such a fuss.
My suspicion is that you have poor emotional comprehension of other people. It seems to me, and this could be wrong, that you are searching for intellectual understanding of people...but from what I can work out, around 40-90% of decision making is emotion/instinct based (depending on subject), with logic just supporting the emotions...so it makes a lot of sense to try and understand peoples emotions first.
0 Replies
 
 

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