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Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 01:44 pm
Well, if they teach chemistry properly ...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 12:25 pm
When capitalism and secularism clash...

The Bulgarians have a dilemma. Adhere to the values of Western capitalism and grab the chance of making much-needed money when it presents itself - or join in with the recent chorus about how Western values should be defended against Muslim girls in veils?

Adhering to European / EU standards is important, everyone agrees - but what are those standards? Follow the French model, or the UK model?

Quote:
Headscarf Dilemma Puzzles Bulgaria
Balkan Insight, 31 Aug 06

[My] summary:

Quote:
Bulgaria has become caught up in the European row over Islamic dress, after a university said it considered recruiting big number of Turkish students who want to study while wearing veils.

The Medical Academy in Plovdiv said it was weighing a request to grant places to 110 women from Turkey who want to attend lectures on condition they can wear veils.

Under Turkey's secular laws, civil servants, teachers and pupils are forbidden from covering their heads in public in accordance with Islamic religious tradition. More than 200 religious Turkish women recently opted to pursue university education in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

While the academy in Plovdiv can expect an extra 440,000 euro per year from these fee-paying students, the request has generated a local controversy about secularism - and about the country's image on the eve of expected EU membership.

Previously, only a handful of cases concerning Islamic dress have hit Bulgaria, where a sizeable Muslim community is not known for militancy.

Now, experts are calling for legislation to prevent ad-hoc, hasty decisions on such a sensitive matter.

"In a country where church and state are separated, it is improper to allow the wearing of religious clothes or symbols at schools and universities," said Georgi Manolov, professor at Plovdiv's Economy and Administration College.

Michail Ekimdzhiev, chairman of the Association for European Integration and Human Rights, a local NGO, said: "On the one hand, the right of religious self-determination, stipulated in the constitution and in the European Convention on Human Rights, envisages the right to wear specific clothing and symbols. But on the other hand, many European state universities forbid wearing religious symbols."

The situation is blurred by the need of cash-strapped colleges to attract foreign, fee-paying, students.

Education minister Daniel Vulchev told local media on Wednesday that his institution will seek legislature changes to ban any kind of religious symbols in schools and universities.

But if supported by other state institutions, his choice to follow French rather than UK policy on the matter, has good chance to antagonise the moderate centuries-old Muslim community.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 06:13 pm
nimh :
reading your article makes me scratch my head .
we live in kingston , a city with 100,000+ population .
we have queen's university (with 20,000 students ) right in the centre of the old city .
there are many muslim (male and female) students at the university .
from my observations nobody (let's say almost nobody) seems to care if the muslim women wear a headscarf or not . we see muslim women every day in the stores , at the university , on the streets ... they have started to blend in to the scenery .

there was quite an uproar a few years ago when the first sikh joined the RCMP and insisted and wearing his headscarf .
several ww II veterans wrote to the newspapers saying : "they were good enough to serve with us during the war wearing their headscarfs ;
we think they will make fine RCMP officers wearing their headscarfs ".
that pretty well ended the kerfaffle .
hbg

link to an article :
...SIKH RCMP OFFICER...

quite an imposing figure !
btw the son of one of our friends has been serving in the same unit as the first sikh officer ; he certainly had high praise for him .
http://www.sikhspectrum.com/092002/images/baltej.jpg
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 03:12 am
Thats a little different from a young girl demanding to wear overtly religious clothing whilst receiving an education at state expense.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 03:55 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Thats a little different from a young girl demanding to wear overtly religious clothing whilst receiving an education at state expense.

Serving on the national police force wearing overtly religious clothing is OK but attending university wearing overtly religious clothing is not? What is the difference in question? Receiving an education at state expense requires more obligations than actually serving in a representative state function?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 04:11 am
Well for one we are talking about children here, specifically girls under sixteen. If there is a dress code at school - and you may argue that there should be none as Walter does - then I think exemption should only be allowed on medical grounds.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 04:30 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
If there is a dress code at school

Ok fair enough, but French schools dont usually have dress codes - the "code" on not wearing a headscarf, cross etc is the exemption here, while most everything else goes.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 05:49 am
The thing that really gets me is that as far as I can find out, wearing a headscarf is not actually necessary under Islamic law. So there should be no conflict. It seems to me some militants want to make it a point of conflict to gain a "victory" over the secular French state.

Of course once the girl leaves school she is quite free to wear what she wants...but actually even this is not true. She cant wear nothing (much as I might advocate this), so she is free to wear what she chooses within the limits of offending public decency. So its a matter of degree. We "allow" women much more freedom to dress how they want. Its seems to me that Islam finds western dress offensive. So although they claim the "freedom" for girls to wear the hijab at school, what they would really like to do is to impose Islamic dress codes on ALL women, muslim or not.

Isnt that what happens in places like Saudi Arabia?
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 06:04 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
It seems to me some militants want to make it a point of conflict to gain a "victory" over the secular French state.


This is the reason why, having seen the determination of the French (government), those militants don't try to impose it (hijab) anymore.

French schools are free of charge, public and secular since Jules Ferry laws 1881/1882.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 06:24 am
Hi Francis...and nimh...(!)

good to see you around

So are you saying the headscarf argument is over in France?

(Just back from Chambery btw...nice place)
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 06:40 am
Hi, Steve!

Yes, arguments over scarf are now over in France (at least I haven't heard of any for a while)...

(Hicking in the Alps, Steve?)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 07:05 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Isnt that what happens in places like Saudi Arabia?

Do you think that European Muslims would want to live like in Saudi Arabia? Even just those that wear headscarves? I dont believe it for a second. There's plenty of girls in Holland that want to wear a headscarf, but would be pretty outraged if they were told that they werent, for example, allowed to go outside without a male chaperone, or to drive a car, or etc.

I'm sure there are Muslims who'd rather see all women dress according to their sense of propriety, but I have seen little if any evidence of Muslims trying "to impose Islamic dress codes on ALL women, muslim or not". In the most militant quarters there is street pressure on Muslim girls to dress according to what militants consider right (the group Ni Putes Ni Soumises has recounted how this happens in some French suburbs), but a drive to "impose" the headscarf etc on "ALL" women?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 07:07 am
Not hiking or even hicking but perhaps hiccupping in the Alps....

wedding of my cousin who teaches at the university.

Married an Italian girl...lots of kissing all round. Very enjoyable.

Stayed at Chambery le Vieux...

All Savoie knows of this marriage, I am surprised the news has not reached Paris yet. (Actually it has because he used to teach in Paris ...)

We did do a small walk from Col de Granier to Point de Gogeat (sorry for spelling).
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 07:17 am
nimh wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Isnt that what happens in places like Saudi Arabia?

Do you think that European Muslims would want to live like in Saudi Arabia? Even just those that wear headscarves? I dont believe it for a second. There's plenty of girls in Holland that want to wear a headscarf, but would be pretty outraged if they were told that they werent, for example, allowed to go outside without a male chaperone, or to drive a car, or etc.

I'm sure there are Muslims who'd rather see all women dress according to their sense of propriety, but I have seen little if any evidence of Muslims trying "to impose Islamic dress codes on ALL women, muslim or not". In the most militant quarters there is street pressure on Muslim girls to dress according to what militants consider right (the group Ni Putes Ni Soumises has recounted how this happens in some French suburbs), but a drive to "impose" the headscarf etc on "ALL" women?


Well I dont know nimh. You probably know more about this than I do. But isnt it a fact that European women, muslim or not have to be pretty careful about what they wear in public in Saudi? It just seems to me that we are tolerant of others and bend over backwards to ensure minority rights, but when its the other way around, and european women are a minority in a muslim country, the same tolerance is not extended to them.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 08:47 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
But isnt it a fact that European women, muslim or not have to be pretty careful about what they wear in public in Saudi? It just seems to me that we are tolerant of others and bend over backwards to ensure minority rights, but when its the other way around, and european women are a minority in a muslim country, the same tolerance is not extended to them.


You don't seriously mean that we should expect in foreign countries everything to be the same as at home?

What would Mrs Steve 41oo say when you start kissing around in your neighbourhood like the Italians/French do? (Not mentioning the neighbour's reactions or those of clients in the Hare Laughing )

I believe that one of virtues of the societies we live in is indeed that we are tolerant against minorities - what Frederick II (the Great)[1740 king in Prussia, 1772 King of Prussia] is said to have said*: "All religions must be tolerated. Everyone must get to heaven on his own façon. The authorities must only kep an eye on that one is detrimental to the other."


* There's no real source for that, although it is tought in German schools since .... might be 1740. (In that year he wrote: "Alle Religionen seindt gleich und guht, wan nuhr die Leute, so sie profesieren, erliche Leute seindt, und wen Türken und Heiden kähmen und wolten das Land pöbplieren, so wollen wier sie Mosqueen und Kirchen bauen." Which roughly means the same.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 09:20 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
It just seems to me that we are tolerant of others and bend over backwards to ensure minority rights, but when its the other way around, and european women are a minority in a muslim country, the same tolerance is not extended to them.

Well yes obviously European societies are more tolerant of religious difference than the Saudi society is. I'm glad and proud of that, myself.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 09:21 am
"...What would Mrs Steve 41oo say when you start kissing around in your neighbourhood like the Italians/French do?..."

or the viennese for that matter ...
the year was 1942 , i had been sent to live in vienna for a year .
my mother and brother (he was 18 at the time) came to visit me and the family i was staying with .
as we were entering the apartment building , many of the ladies came out
of the apartments and started 'bussing' (kissing) my mother and my brother . my brother took me aside after a few of these 'greetings' and asked , quite bewildered : "what the heck is going on here ? ".
so i - the little brother - had to explain the viennese custom to him .
of course in hamburg it was pretty rare to kisss each other ; a 'firm' handshake was considered a 'proper' greeting .
(as the germans say : "andere laender , andere sitten" = "different countries , different mores" ).
hbg
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 09:25 am
nimh wrote:

Well yes obviously European societies are more tolerant of religious difference than the Saudi society is. I'm glad and proud of that, myself.


Same for me (forgot that to add to my above response).
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 09:25 am
... or if our canteen served our English co-workers cooked steak with poison-green peas á la Anglaise?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 09:26 am
hamburger wrote:

or the viennese for that matter ...
the year was 1942 , i had been sent to live in vienna for a year .


My aunt lives since 1945 there: she never got used to that. (Though she lost nearly all Westphalian virtues :wink: )
0 Replies
 
 

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