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Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 11:59 am
Now you're makin' me crazy, Walter, i can't access that page . . . was there a swastika or not?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 12:11 pm
Yes, besides others, a swastica.

Go to
http://www.geocities.com/rutiliusde/jasta.htm

In the middle of the page, just above "Jagdgeschwader 2", click on 'Werner Voos'. That will bring you to my above link. (Which really doesn't work - sorry)
Here again http://www.geocities.com/rutiliusde/Alb-D3-Voss_02.jpg
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 12:41 pm
Thank you, Walter. Now i don't feel so stupid, nor that my memory is rapidly failing.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 12:42 pm
You've got my banc account already.
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sarahscire
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 04:21 pm
Hm. Didn't France sign the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

Article 18 states:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

Am I confused?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 04:37 pm
sarahscire wrote:
Hm. Didn't France sign the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

Article 18 states:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

Am I confused?

Obviously:
Quote:
Préambule

Le peuple français proclame solennellement son attachement aux Droits de l'homme et aux principes de la souveraineté nationale tels qu'ils ont été définis par la Déclaration de 1789, confirmée et complétée par le préambule de la Constitution de 1946.

Preamble of the French constitution

Nevertheless: wellcome to A2K.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 05:55 pm
I voted that no one should tell people what they can wear.
Of course, I just realized that's wrong--we do control 'proper attire'--people can't show their dirty bits.

About the 'religious articles of clothing/adornment'.

I do think it is France/Chirac's transparent attempt to control a Muslim cultural invasion.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 08:40 pm
Walter, I dont understand your last post?

I think Sarahscire raises a valid enough point: the ban does seem to violate the UNs declaration of human rights.

Well, this is a very typical French thing. The outrage over headscarves there is at least ten years old. Chirac's predecessors and opponents were and are just as vocal about it. They are very fundamentalist about keeping their public space strictly secular, in a way that no other European country with similar numbers of Muslim immigrants is.

We have gotten a little bit of that discussion here, too, but really only to a marginal extent. No wonder: France has an entrenched system of public, secular schools, the secularism of which both left and right feel it is their strict duty to defend. In Holland, on the other hand, over half of the schools are actually protestant or catholic, which goes back to a long history in which protestants, catholics and seculars each have gone to their own schools - and in which the state has been obliged to finance each exactly equally.

Thats why we actually even have Muslim schools here, too - after all, if the other religions got theirs, why not the Muslims? Only last year did the right-wing liberals start making an issue of them, suggesting they posed risks for cultural integration (if not national security) - but their christian-democratic coalition partners will, for obvious reasons, block any move to restrict them (cause then their schools might be up next).

Funny, really - when you hear American conservatives talk, you'd think all of "Old Europe" was the same - but sometimes, its different worlds! In Bavaria, its a scandal if they have to take the cross off from the schoolclass wall - in Paris, its a scandal if someone even wears one.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 08:50 pm
Haven't made up my mind, have strong ideas in both (or more) directions. Also, ne'er mind my mind, what about it re France's constitution, history, need not to have compartmentalized, isolated, groups - not that these 'what abouts' mesh re any answers. People who want veiling will form private schools, become more isolated, a reaction to equalizing...

There was another thread about this, a month or two ago, and some of the talk was about Rules in schools, which do have rights - depending to some extent on private vs public - to dictate various matters, having the rules be equal to all.

I am right now microscopically more for headscarves being allowed, for basic rights and wise action (getting to know other people...). The basic rights thing is flimsy though, in that schools do have some purview over dress, etc. And if that is clear, then it should be equal. Speaking re US.
As to France, I dunno.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:02 pm
U.S. chides Chirac over headscarves stance
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3738077
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 12:29 am
nimh wrote:
Walter, I dont understand your last post?

I think Sarahscire raises a valid enough point: the ban does seem to violate the UNs declaration of human rights.


Hmm.

If this really is so - what about school uniforms?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 07:51 am
sarahscire wrote:
Hm. Didn't France sign the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

Article 18 states:
"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."?

I don't think there's a conflict with what the French are doing. There's lots of places in France, "public or private", where people can worship, teach and manifest whatever religion they like. All the French are legislating is that public schools and other government buildings aren't such places.

Personally, my first priority is that legislation keep things consistent between religions. The worst solution is what we have in Germany, where Christianity is actively promoted in schools and Islam is actively inhibited. In Bavaria for example, it is mandatory for schools to have crucifixes hanging in classrooms, but our state government wants to pass a law against head scarfs. In my opinion, you ought to either outlaw the symbols of all religious or you allow them all.

As a second priority, I prefer to have legislation consistently tolerant about public display of religion, rather than consistently adverse to it. But this preference is much weaker than the first.

The French are consistent, which is good and most important for me. They are also consistently adverse to displaying religion in schools, which isn't so good. But altogether it's a regulation I can live with.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 08:07 am
nimh wrote:
U.S. chides Chirac over headscarves stance
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3738077



I think the United States ought to pass a law requiring administration representatives to keep their goddam noses out of issues like this!
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 08:09 am
Thomas

I definitely agree with your comment:

Quote:
The French are consistent, which is good and most important for me.


Although I was less thrilled with:

Quote:
They are also consistently adverse to displaying religion in schools, which isn't so good.


But I get your message!
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 08:23 am
Quote:
I do think it is France/Chirac's transparent attempt to control a Muslim cultural invasion.


I am not conversant with French mores. But it sounds to me that the ban is really targeted at Muslims. I am assuming that there was never a problem with skullcaps and crosses, in the past. Now those have to be included, so that Chirac appears even handed.

Another thing. A symbol is a symbol is a symbol. What is this business about the ban including "large" crosses? What constitutes large? Are 1" crosses ok, and 3" crosses not?

If religious symbols are verboten in public schools in France, why are small (whatever that is) crosses allowed? How Does Chirac feel about "small" Muslim related jewelry?

IMO, Chirac is singling out one religion.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 08:42 am
Frank!! How can you expect Bush to bypass a chance to teach the French a lesson in personal rights???

We are the liberal ones on this issue!!! <I bet Bush laughed his ass off when that message was released>

France: Stifling freedom of religion and expression!!
<heehee>
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 09:51 am
Sofia wrote:
Frank!! How can you expect Bush to bypass a chance to teach the French a lesson in personal rights???

We are the liberal ones on this issue!!! <I bet Bush laughed his ass off when that message was released>

France: Stifling freedom of religion and expression!!
<heehee>


If ya just stick around long enough.... :wink: :wink:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 09:55 am
Sofia wrote:
Frank!! How can you expect Bush to bypass a chance to teach the French a lesson in personal rights???

We are the liberal ones on this issue!!! <I bet Bush laughed his ass off when that message was released>

France: Stifling freedom of religion and expression!!
<heehee>


Well, you are correct - the courts just told your administration a lesson in personal rights.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 10:57 am
The French have more than a century of prohibiting any expression of religion in public schools. If skullcaps and crosses were overlooked in the past, and are included now, i would say it is more of a case of not wishing to provide a grounds for complaint when the scarves are banned. In fact, this issue arose some time ago, when Muslim girls refused to remove their scarves, and local school districts in France then banned any such religiously motivated attire. What Chirac has done is create a national policy to obviate the many local squabbles, and to maintain a consistency with the republican tradition of secularism in public life in France. I doubt not for a moment that Chirac hopes to profit by stealing the thunder of the right wing in upcoming local elections; nevertheless, this had become an issue long before he took up the question.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 11:19 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Sofia wrote:
Frank!! How can you expect Bush to bypass a chance to teach the French a lesson in personal rights???

We are the liberal ones on this issue!!! <I bet Bush laughed his ass off when that message was released>

France: Stifling freedom of religion and expression!!
<heehee>


Well, you are correct - the courts just told your administration a lesson in personal rights.

Ye canna tarnish me glee.
We were to the left of Chirac LeGree.
<I shall immortalize it in song.>
0 Replies
 
 

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