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Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools

 
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 06:12 pm
You know they have the right to choose another school in the area, or homeschool. Students have several choices--not mentioning private school, if they find uniforms distasteful.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 06:21 pm
Sofia wrote:
You know they have the right to choose another school in the area, or homeschool. Students have several choices--not mentioning private school, if they find uniforms distasteful.

At least in Balto city, the only option is to drop out. Private schools are too expensive for poor families. The uniforms are there to avoid the pitfalls of gang colours. They cannot trasnfer to county schools, since the surrounding county schools charge city students tuition.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 06:32 pm
Found an exemplary little article on the topic in the paper, back when I first entered this dicsussion. So I started translating it for y'all. Never finished it at the time, though ... but now I did after all.

It doesn't make my case, but it doesn't make that of the opponents either. It primarily tells the story from 'the other side', from the side of the Muslim women, which, imho, is much needed. But it also eventually lets all sides speak out - and what is more, it shows all parties involved, including the Muslims, from both their pleasant and their distinctly less pleasant side.

Rather rare for a topic like this, such a comprehensive approach that goes for sources way beyond the 'usual suspects', and doesn't 'veil' them (no pun intended) either way ... worth the (long) read, really <nods>

Quote:
Headscarves off!

In France, Muslims are demonstrating massively against the law that prohibits headscarves on public schools, this Saturday. They feel stigmatized. The other French, both left and right, are squarely behind the law.

De Volkskrant
By Fokke Obbema
Thursday 15 January

"Where will this end? Now there will be a law that forbids us to wear a headscarf at school, next up we won't be allowed to wear one on the street anymore either. We are given the cold shoulder ever more. This law will be a black page in the history of France. I don't understand how something like this is possible in a country that has always been proud of the freedom of its citizens."

Fury and desperation resound in the voice of Nora Jaballah, a 44-year old mother of five children, who is also president of the LFFM (Ligue Francaise de la Femme Musulmane), an umbrella organisation of twelve associations of Muslim women. She sketches the struggle that she has been waging in her own circles since 1995, against what she calls "the two extremes": aversion to God - and fundamentalism.

She doesn't feel at ease with either. Muslims who lose their religion collide with her religious convictions, but she doesn't want anything to do with the radical Islam either: "The fundamentalists think that only God counts and turn away from the society in which they live. But I want to both serve God and be a French citizen."

Walking the middle way, in her view, is being made more difficult by the law that President Chirac announced last month: on public schools, from the next schoolyear on, students will not be allowed to wear headscarves, [Jewish] skull caps and big crosses anymore. That may look like an equal treatment of religions, according to Jaballah, but isn't. "In practice the law is targeted at us. Because the Jews and the Christians have their private schools, where they can keep wearing their skull caps and crosses. But we don't have schools of our own. There is no equality here."

The "stigmatising" law can lead to a radicalisation of her constituency, she fears. "I know girls who used to wear a simple headcsarf, were suspended from their schools for that, and now walk around from head to toe in black clothes. They feel marginalised and then just identify with their religion. Repression always leads to more extremism."

The public opinion in the West, outside France, shares her concern. Leading newspapers in the US and EU almost unanimously say that Chirac is about to go too far in limiting religious freedom. To have the state force Muslims to take off their headscarves is "the wrong decision", writes the New York Times. Who fights fundamentalism this way, can expect "the pious to become more fanatic because they have the feeling they are being repressed".

A danger that is expressed by Iman Cheikh, a 38-year old mother of three schoolgoing children, who is waiting outside at the Lycee Jacques Brel in La Courneuve, one of the most depressing suburbs of Paris. The grey towerblocks, that were hastily put here in the sixties, seem ripe for demolition.

Minority people are an ample majority on this school, where the headscarves for now are still being tolerated. But that tolerance is in an ever worse shape, argues Cheikh, a Syrian Muslima with a headscarf. She lists recent incidents: a school that suddenly refuses entry to a friend because her headscarf would be offensive to the students; a civil servant who refuses to marry a veiled Muslima; a bank where Muslima's have to take off their headscarf when they come in.

"I respect France and Jacques Chirac, but the Muslims will fight this law. There will be Islamic schools and the Islam will only become stronger", she predicts. In her eyes, by the way, the law wasn't Chirac's own idea. "He is no more than a puppet; there are other people who have more power still and who don't like us." When she sees my incomprehending look, she continues in a conspirational tone: "It's the Jews, they are behind this law."

A little later, lunching in a little workers' restaurant in La Courneuve, a truck driver, a good-natured-looking man in his thirties, expresses his approval of this "fine law". "Of course the muslims feel stigmatized. That's how those people always feel. But the headscarf doesn't belong on our schools. End of story."

That opinion is sometimes expressed a little more subtly too, but the consensus about it is extremely widespread among the French. The discussion this past year, thus, was not anymore about whether the headscarf does or doesn't belong on public shools - but about whether or not it should be prohibited by law.

Now that the latter is about to happen, the French are unifying behind the proposal. The initiative may come from a rightwing government, but left-wingers would rather make the law even more stringent than weaken it. According to the Socialists, not just every "ostentative" religious sign should be forbidden, as Chirac is proposing - every "visible" sign should be, a small cross too.

After all, each expression of "conversion fever" is out of place on a neutral, public school. The leftwing intellectual Régis Debray upped the ante this week by also wanting to ban all commercial expressions. No more Nike or Coca-Cola on T-shirts, because that only evokes propaganda for brands like Adidas or Pepsi, he contends.

With his knitted sweater and little beard the 43-year old Paul Morin looks like the prototype of the leftwing teacher. The headmaster of the Lycée Jacques Brel is known among his students for his liberal attitude about the headscarf: fifteen of the 650 girls wear one and thus far not one girl has been sent from school. But in September he won't be able to keep that score, he expects: two of the fifteen are not prepared to enter the building without headscarf. And the law is implacable in that regard.

"I will experience that as a fiasco", he says in a soft voice. Nevertheless he stands firmly behind the law, because "personally, the wearing of headscarves shocks me deeply." In his eyes it is a symbol for the discrimination of women. Moreover, girls far from always wear it voluntarily. In how many cases they are forced to, he doesn't know: "A girl would never dare admit that, out of fear for her father."

Those girls will be offered protection by the new law, Morin expects. That some girls will be lost to education, is a price that will just need to be paid for that. He looks ahead to the demonstration that is held next Saturday with concern. The fundamentalists might just be helped by the extreme-right to get as many Muslima's as possible on the street. "For Le Pen it would be wonderful, of course, if there'll be twentythousand veiled woman walking through Paris. "They are everywhere!", he can then yell."

Fouad Alaoui doesn't see the point of that reasoning, at all: "Politicians sometimes make reproach me that we play into the hands of the extreme right. But we can't renounce our right to demonstrate because of that, can we? The popularity of the extreme right is your problem, is what I tell these politicians."

Alaoui is one of the most well-known Muslims of France - he is the Secretary-general of the UIOF, which is known as the most radical of the larger Muslim organisations. Their mosque is at a stone's throw distance from the Lycée Jacques Brel. It looks like a converted factory hall; the adjoining, tiny rooms in which Alaoui receives his guests are the headquarters of the UIOF. When one thinks about the riches of the other religions, one understands here why the Islam, the second religion of the country, feels disadvantaged.

Alaoui often sees that feeling confirmed in practice. Of course, he is taken in with the disapproval "the whole world" has expressed about the "anti-headscarf law". But, he says with an ironic laugh: "I thank the Brits and the Americans for their support to us, even though it is of course mostly part of the settling of scores with France."

In France, the Muslims are isolated in their resistance. The French media continuously want to know from Alaoui whether his people will adhere to the new law: "That question alone already indicates that they still see us as inferior citizens. I never hear them ask a question like that about any other subject, but it does come up when it's about us."

Unjustified, too, in his opinion, is how his organisation is branded as "fundamentalist". He knows why that is so: too often the UIOF does not agree with the political establishment. "Franch politicians have a colonial view of us. They want to push a button and get the desired answer. But if we would give it, we would lose our legitimacy with our constituency."

The frustration among Muslims about not being taken seriously as French citizens, even now that their country has the largest Muslim community of the EU and is home to third- and fourth-generation French Muslims, only seems to be exacerbated by the new law. That is exactly the opposite of what the commission-Stasi, which recommended the new law to president Chirac, intended.

One of the "wise people" in that commission is headmaster Ghislaine Hudson. She defends the law, which, to her mind, Muslims wrongly call "repressive": "Especially now, in these months, there is time for a dialogue with the students, they must be convinced. I expect that the overwhelming majority will go to school without headscarf in September."

What Hudson does take to heart, is that Muslims experience the law as stigmatising their community. "That bothers me much more than the question of the headscarf itself. Because it is never good, when a group feels excluded. I think we need to take many steps still in the field of combating racism."

She does admit that she has chosen for the weapon of the law with "mixed feelings". "I do stand behind it, but only in twenty years time will it be clear whether it was really the right decision."
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  2  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 07:01 pm
I was so sympatico with Iman, and was clotheslined by this:
Quote:
When she sees my incomprehending look, she continues in a conspirational tone: "It's the Jews, they are behind this law."

Rolling Eyes
I was really surprised to see the article stating a report that women are forced to remove the hajib before entering some banks. That is offensive.

I appreciate your work, nimh. It was a good read.

BTW, I agree with the professor's view that the hajib does signify discrimination against women. He's probably right about the students being coerced by their fathers to wear them, to a large degree.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 07:21 pm
Sofia wrote:
I was so sympatico with Iman, and was clotheslined by this:
Quote:
When she sees my incomprehending look, she continues in a conspirational tone: "It's the Jews, they are behind this law."

Rolling Eyes


Yeh, thats why I was taken in by the article ...

Its rare to see a journalist go out of his/her way to fairly report the Muslim minority's point of view on the matter, too - and then yet, when the POV in question turns ugly, report that, too.

Glad you liked it <smiles>
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 11:10 pm
Sofia wrote:

I think I remember you making a similar comment previously. Are you under the impression US students have to wear uniforms?


No.
0 Replies
 
sparky
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2004 10:27 pm
My son has to wear a uniform to a public school - elementary school, no less. I am not happy about it, but I don't have the time to waste to take the school to court. They justify it by saying that it cuts down on gang something-or-other. I find it kind of fascist (right word?) to force the entire school to conform to a uniform code to keep a few bad kids in line.

As for the French ruling - they should be ashamed. There is a difference between a government being religiously sterile and being religiously oppressive. For example, it makes sense to me that publicly funded schools should not be leading students in prayer (for any religion). However, if someone wishes to pray to their god (or gods) in that school, they should not be deprived of that right.

As an atheist, I am not a fan of religious symbols or bumper stickers, etc., but I do believe that people have the right to express themselves and practice their religion. As long as those expressions and practices do not compromise the rights of others.

Very simply, keep government out of religion, and religion out of government. Are you listening Chirac?
0 Replies
 
hail
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 10:11 pm
Quote:
As an atheist, I am not a fan of religious symbols or bumper stickers, etc., but I do believe that people have the right to express themselves and practice their religion. As long as those expressions and practices do not compromise the rights of others.

I wrote before that and i will repet it again that what muslim girls wear as i know is not symbols to express their religion but it is a duty and part of their religion .... thats what i think .....
0 Replies
 
hail
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 10:16 pm
Sparky said :
Quote:
I am not a fan of religious symbols or bumper stickers, etc., but I do believe that people have the right to express themselves and practice their religion. As long as those expressions and practices do not compromise the rights of others.

I wrote before and i will repet it again that what muslim girls wear as i know is not symbols to express their religion but it is a duty and part of their religion .... thats what i think ...... can theyban someone from praying .... so why should they ban it.....
0 Replies
 
edouardogonzo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2004 04:02 pm
If you want to know the whole story... Everything comes from this movement:

Ni Putes Ni Soumises

Mostly young Muslim women that just want to live a French way of life without being beaten by their male parents/brothers/'friends'/anyone you want, or having to justify for not wearing a head scarves or a blue jean. Even if they do have faith.

The website is in French. Read it carefully (if you can - and I'm not you at translation ;-) ) because it's a totally independent association that made big noise 2 years ago.

They met (2 years ago) with president Jacques Chirac who assured them he will do something to help them.

Believe me, this law is especially made for those young women, living in big cities suburb. At least they can go to school the way they want.

Of course, creating a law banning any obviously visible religious sign applies to anyone, including Jews, Christians, and all other religions.

The goal is also to stop extremist Islamism to grow in French suburbs.

End of the Story.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 12:12 am
Welcome to A2K, edouardogonzo!

As said at the website: this movement started as follower-up to the "Marche des femmes contre les ghettos et pour l'égalité" on world women's day in 2003 (and was founded in 2002).

Their aims are:
- No more moralising: our condition has worsened. The media and politics have done nothing, or very little, for us.
- No more wretchedness. We are fed up with people speaking for us, with being treated with contempt.
- No more justifications of our oppression in the name of the right to be different and of respect toward those who force us to bow our heads.
- No more silence in public debates about violence, poverty and discrimination.


Quote:
Two high-profile cases gave a particular impetus to NPNS during 2003. The first was that of Samira Bellil who published a book called Dans l'enfer des tournantes (In Gang Rape Hell) in which she recounts her life as a girl under la loi des cités (the law of the housing projects) where she was gang raped on more than one occasion, the first time at age 13, afraid to speak out, and ultimately seen only as a sexual object, alienated and shunned by her family and some of her friends. The second case was that of 17-year-old Sohanne Denziane who was burned alive by her ex-boyfriend. Both of these were fresh in the minds of the members of Ni Putes Ni Soumises during their march through France, which started in February 2003 and took them to over 20 cities before culminating in a 30 000 strong demonstration in Paris on March 8, 2003. The march was officially called la Marche des femmes des quartiers contre les ghettos et pour l'égalité (The March of Women from the Projects against ghettoes and for equality). Representatives of Ni Putes Ni Soumises were received by French Prime Minister Jean Pierre Raffarin. Their message was also incorporated into the official celebrations of Bastille Day 2003 in Paris, when 14 giant posters each of a modern woman dressed as Marianne, the symbol of the French Republic, were hung on the columns of the Palais Bourbon, the home of the Assemblée nationale (the lower house of the French parliament). thumb|300px|right|The Assemblée nationale decorated with all the Mariannes d'aujourd'hui The following five propositions were accepted by the French government:
The publication of an educational guide dealing with respect, to be distributed in the housing projects and schools.
The establishment of safe houses away from the housing projects for girls and women in immediate distress, where they can be safe in relative anonymity.
The creation of six pilot sites where women will be able to have their voices heard.
The organisation of training seminars for women to develop their particular strengths.
Special provisions made in police stations for girls and women who have been the victims of violence.
Source: ScienceDaily

I remember that the constitutional separation of religion and state started a little bit earlier in France :wink:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 04:17 pm
Quote:
Women vow to protect Muslim hijab
By Paula Dear
BBC News Online

Muslim women have launched a Europe-wide campaign to protect their right to wear the hijab headscarf.
The international network Assembly for the Protection of Hijab, or Pro-Hijab, was formed in response to headscarf bans in France and parts of Germany.


Pro-Hijab aims to reverse bans already brought in and prevent more "abuses of democracy" being imposed.
"As Muslims we are proud of the hijab, we are not oppressed," said co-ordinator Abeer Pharaon.


The group, launched in London on Monday, wants to banish the "negative sterotypical image of the hijab which lies at the root of this discrimination" and to offer Muslim women a platform from which they can speak out.

The group has the support of a number of prominent groups such as the Muslim Association of Britain, National Assembly Against Racism, the Federation of Islamic Organisations in Europe and human rights group Liberty.

'Lacked confidence'

MEP Caroline Lucas, Fiona McTaggart MP, and George Galloway MP and London Mayor Ken Livingstone have also supported the founding of the campaign.

Speaking at the launch Ms McTaggart gave an assurance the government would protect women's rights to wear the hijab, and would not be following France's example.


Student Rumaana Habeeb, 18, said the hijab allowed interactions between men and women to be free and safe.

"Relationships can then based on intellect and nothing else," she said.


Pharmacist Saba Naeem, a mother of two, said she had started wearing the hijab later than many women.

"I had wanted to do it for a while but I suppose I didn't have the support network, and I lacked the confidence.

"My husband gave me the encouragement I needed and I came back from honeymoon wearing the hijab. It feels so positive.


"It is a religious duty, but also exists to preserve a woman's modesty. It means you are not just a sex symbol - you have something to offer other than just your looks."

She said the hijab had many benefits, such as bringing communities together and being identified and greeted by fellow Muslims all over the world.


'Initially shocked'

The scarf is not about the oppression of women, she said.

"I am a professional woman who works, I am involved in many activities in my own right. It's important to realise that Muslim men also have dress codes, and the women's hijab also acts as a reminder to them to preserve their dignity."

"The covering of the head is something that is commanded by God, not man," added microbiology student Monowara Gani, 20, who decided in her first year at Nottingham University to add the face veil to her hijab.


"I can't explain why, it's something between me and God. I think it was the best decision I ever made. I know it looks different, and maybe some people think it's wierd, but I am so happy.

"People on campus were initially shocked but in the end it didn't matter to them. We still chat and laugh as before.

She says most comments are positive and the few insults she receives are easy to ignore.

"I walk down the street with so much confidence now."

Pro-Hajib will hold its first full conference at the Greater London Authority on 12 July.

Source

Again: neither in France nor in Germany headscarfs are banned: in France only in public schools, the same in one German state (two more are still in the "law-making process").
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 04:06 am
Thank God, a little sanity

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3808073.stm
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 09:16 am
The European Court of Human Rights has rejected an appeal by a Turkish student barred from attending Istanbul University medical school because her headscarf violated the dress code, and has ruled that banning Muslim headscarves in state schools does not violate the freedom of religion and is a valid way to counter Islamic fundamentalism. The court wrote that "measures taken in universities to prevent certain fundamentalist religious movements from pressuring students who do not practice the religion in question or those belonging to another religion can be justified." The court's decision, which has precedence over national court rulings, could help the French government defend its ban on religious symbols, including headscarves, in state schools.

Reuters has more, the press release is here and the full text of today's judgement HERE
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 09:24 am
Walter
Quote:
The court's decision, which has precedence over national court rulings, could help the French government defend its ban on religious symbols, including headscarves, in state schools.


Is that a fact? The European court can overrule national law?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 09:45 am
au1929 wrote:

Is that a fact? The European court can overrule national law?


au

It's not the European court, but the EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

Quote:
source: Britannica

Don't you think that it is good idea to have national laws according to Human Rights?

At least, ALL 45 European countries think so.

(Knowing your hate on Euroepans, you certainly will oppose.
And since you testified that you know more from a glimpse of history than by reading an article, these links might be in vain, too.)
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 09:51 am
Oh damn it, I wanted to vote YES but I accidently voted NO.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 09:53 am
No need to get you shorts twisted. I was just curious.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 06:36 am
Thanks for the post Walter

You can't be too hard on an American who doesn't know the difference between the European Court, and the European Court of Human Rights.
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 06:58 am
Rick

You will have to recruit 2 people to vote yes for you.

I'm not fixing the results for you!

The ruling by the ECHR is interesting. They seem to be saying that freedom of religious expression also includes freedom not to be pressurised into conformity with any particular dress code.

A similar argument was used in Britain, where the girl who wanted to wear a jilbab was not allowed to do so because (among other things) it implied she was somehow a more devout or better Muslim than the girls who only wore the hajib. [Its rubbish of course, but it is an EXCELLENT argument for keeping religion out of schools].

At the other extreme another school in England banned girls wearing skirts because, after they had invariably modified them to make them as short as possible, it was too er....distracting and forced them to convert to Islam and wear full length bourkhas instead. Only kidding, they had to wear trousers like everyone else. Actually now I remember it, I think this has also gone to the ECHR for a ruling...should be interesting. How about transvestite boys who demand the right to wear skirts?
0 Replies
 
 

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