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Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2004 06:00 pm
When the "truth" is seen through your very selective filter. I doubt that "those people" are the only ones who would do such a thing. There have been examples the world over. The US Army in the 19th century was never shy about such things, and even in 1991 there were examples in the US military of soldiers arrangeing corpses of Iraqi dead in humiliating poses, and taking photos. Stop being such a bigoted jerk!
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2004 06:20 pm
Hobbitbob.

Does the fact that others have done it in the past make it any less gruesome or true? I don't quite get your point? What specifically are you objecting to. .
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2004 06:31 pm
au1929 wrote:
Hobbitbob.

Does the fact that others have done it in the past make it any less gruesome or true? I don't quite get your point? What specifically are you objecting to. .

I'm objecting to your bigotry.
I posted the article to counter the nauseatingly frequent complaints from you and your ideological fellows who yammer on about how "them damned Muslim's leaders never condemn the "savagery." "
So now you haev gone off on a tangent about how "those people" are uncivilized, etc... Well guess what, old man, "those people" are you and me and everyone. So pull your head from your rectum and get over yourself!
I would be very surprised if our "brave hero soldiers" are not doing similar things in Iraq and Afghanistan. We aren't "special" or "different" because we are Americans. The sonner you adn the other neo-neaderthals realize this the safer the rest of teh world wil be!
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2004 06:59 pm
Hobbitbob
Quote:
\It seems that those people only respond to tyrants such as Saddam. Treating those people with a velvet glove rather than a mailed fist does not seem to work
.

This statement apparently set you off. Now with as much restraint and civility you can muster what is your problem.
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hail
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 03:47 am
Hi all,

It seemed to be interesting to disscus like this topic
I think that what Muslims wear is not just a symbol as most of you think it is a duty or part of their religon and i think no one must interfer the others religons and for me i don't think that this head scraves will make them stop studing or thinking .
So, why do they banned it ?
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 12:40 pm
hail wrote:
Hi all,

It seemed to be interesting to disscus like this topic
I think that what Muslims wear is not just a symbol as most of you think it is a duty or part of their religon and i think no one must interfer the others religons and for me i don't think that this head scraves will make them stop studing or thinking .
So, why do they banned it ?

Hello, and welcome (PS, ever heard of punctuation?).
The broad continuum from head scarf to full body coverings are individual societal innovations in response to the more generic call for "modesty" in Islamic tradition. Thank you for pointing this out, though many will doubtless not believe you.
In France and Germany the issue seems to be the avoidance of outward symbols of religion in a state setting, something I wholeheartedly agree with. In the Oklahoma case, I think it was plain old fashioned American bigotry.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 02:39 pm
Hobit-- You said:

In France and Germany the issue seems to be the avoidance of outward symbols of religion in a state setting, something I wholeheartedly agree with. In the Oklahoma case, I think it was plain old fashioned American bigotry.
-----
You're kidding, right?
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 02:54 pm
Mostly. The thing that makes me think the OK situation was something more was the fact that they initiated things on 11th September. I think that was meant to be a dig against her faith. I do, however, agree that she should not be exempt from school policies. On the otehr hand, I don't see wearing of crosses (unless they are the huge, dangly 1980s Madonna types), yarmulkes (which were baned for a while by DPS when I was younger), or the headscarf as something that is that detrimental to public order. Personally, I think the policy should be re-written and clarified.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 03:14 pm
Can't disagree with clarification.
As with France's posture, I think this whole anti-religious-symbol thing will produce more trouble than it is worth.

I really can't think of any good this ban will do. If the intent is to 'head off' religious violence in schools--why not just severely punish the violence if it occurs?

I still don't get why France, or any other country, feels compelled to proceed with this.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 03:44 pm
France's hostility to religion ahs sevearl origins. Notable the fact that the Church supported the monachy, which led to its inclusion on teh "enemies" list in the 18th centry revolution. In addition, the Catholic Church's support of the Nazi ocupation also is a sore point. One should aslo rememebr that France suffered terribly under the religious conflicts that raged in the seventeenth century. The French have a long history, unlike our pip-squeak of a nation.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 04:54 pm
That was then.
It's 2004.
Can't they get with the program? Individual rights and freedom of clothing choices aren't a new concept. Even for Old Europe....
<hee>
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 01:07 am
Sofia wrote:
. Even for Old Europe....
<hee>


Yes, indeed: therefor, we don't have e.g. school uniforms in Germany.
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aberdeenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 02:40 pm
Re: Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Jacques Chiraq has upheld one of the founding principles of the French Consitution, the separation of Church and State, by supporting a law banning religious artefacts such as crosses, Jewish skull caps, and headscarves worn by Muslim girls in state schools.

Please give me your opinions in the poll. I'll make mine clear later!


It's gotten to a point at which Christian girls and women in many areas of major French cities are having to wear those scarves to keep from being beaten and/or raped by islammic gangs. Why Europeans put up with it is anybody's guess.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 02:50 pm
Evidence please?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 03:21 pm
Re: Chiraq bans Muslim head scarves in State Schools
aberdeenwolf wrote:

It's gotten to a point at which Christian girls and women in many areas of major French cities are having to wear those scarves to keep from being beaten and/or raped by islammic gangs. Why Europeans put up with it is anybody's guess.


I don't supposesuppose, you are French yourself or live in Europe.

Thus, I really would like to know, from where you got this, since it isn't/wasn't published here.

Thanks - and welcome to A2K!
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 03:28 pm
Quote:
It's gotten to a point at which Christian girls and women in many areas of major French cities are having to wear those scarves to keep from being beaten and/or raped by islammic gangs. Why Europeans put up with it is anybody's guess.


Is this fact or urban legend? If it is fact I can see the justification for the policy.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 03:30 pm
Form every thing I've read, its an urban legend popular among lower class white people in urban England.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 04:25 pm
Old article, from International Herald Tribune / New York Times, but back then I'd circled part of the text, thinking about this thread. Some interesting stuff.

First, the article starts out with the now well-known intro on why France is a special case, and why it would thus stand out by pioneering such legislation. (This, obviously, was before the German state of Baden-Wurtemburg also adopted a law outlawing the headscarf in schools - though not Christian symbols.)

Quote:
Guarding secularism, religiously, in France
Scarf ban is seen as guarantee of unity

Monday, February 9, 2004

PARIS Who would have thought a piece of cloth could threaten the stability of the French state?

For several days last week, the National Assembly in France debated the wisdom of a draft law that would ban most religious symbols from public schools. Although the move is aimed at preventing Muslim girls from showing up in the schoolyard with various degrees of swathing on their heads, President Jacques Chirac and his ministers, in a bow to egalitarianism, also have declared that items like Christian crosses deemed too large and Jewish skullcaps will be prohibited.

The debate has little to do with the usual reasons for school dress codes and everything to do with the French state's historical impulse to impose its republican value system on an increasingly diverse population that includes 5 million Muslims, about 8 percent of the population.

The practices of these new arrivals are often cast as a challenge to Christianity, but in many ways they challenge another religion entirely - the unofficial creed of secularism, which underlies the French conception of government and dates to 1789 and the French Revolution itself. In contrast to pluralist societies that try to accept, or even celebrate, cultural differences among their citizens, the French ideal envisions a uniform, secularized French identity as the best guarantee of national unity and the separation of church and state.


This part of the article concludes that "it is natural that France's government would pick the Islamic veil as a symbol of everything un-French and potentially dangerous about its Muslim population", contrasting the image of a Muslim woman with headscarf with that of "the engraving of the 1790's titled "Republican France Giving Its Bosom to All of France"'.

But then it notes that, though "In 1905, a law codified the separation of church and state", the "struggle for a perfect fit between a powerful central republican state and religious practice has never been completely resolved":

Quote:
Nor has official France erased symbols of Roman Catholicism, a pillar of its pre-revolutionary identity. The majority of the 11 national holidays, including the feast of the Virgin Mary's assumption into heaven and the coming of the Holy Spirit to Jesus Christ's disciples, celebrate Catholic events. The Catholic catechism is taught, and the crucifix is hung in public schools in Alsace-Lorraine, which is exempt from the 1905 law because the area was in German hands when it was adopted.

At the same time, Chirac has rejected a proposal that France move toward treating its faiths equally by creating one school holiday apiece for Jews and Muslims. Underscoring the inconsistencies, private Catholic, Jewish and Protestant schools, which would be exempt from the law banning religious symbols, receive state financing. The administrators of France's first Muslim high school, which opened in Lille last autumn, are hoping it, too, will qualify. Some leaders have pledged to create Muslim schools throughout France, meaning the state could find itself financing schools where the head scarf is the norm.

Even some members of the president's own commission have criticized the recent focus on Muslim head scarves, saying it betrays the spirit of their report, which they had hoped would help unify the country.

"The political response is absurd and laughable," the historian René Rémond told Le Monde. "It feeds the illusion that all we have to do to solve the problem of integration is to vote through a law."

Alain Touraine, a sociologist on the commission, told France Inter radio on Friday: "I used to always say to my foreign friends, 'France doesn't have ghettos.' Well, yes, we have ghettos."

Both men criticized Chirac for acting on only one of the commission's 26 recommendations, ignoring proposals for eradicating "urban ghettos" and creating Arabic language programs in schools. That means the huge problem of integrating Muslims into French society is being argued on a much smaller scale, over issues like whether bandannas and beards are religious symbols and when a cross is too big.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 05:55 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Sofia wrote:
. Even for Old Europe....
<hee>


Yes, indeed: therefor, we don't have e.g. school uniforms in Germany.

I think I remember you making a similar comment previously. Are you under the impression US students have to wear uniforms?
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 06:10 pm
They do, in some districts. Baltimore City Public Schools, for example.
0 Replies
 
 

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