I KNOW God does not exist

@Smileyrius,

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on the second point, you seem to have great faith in humanity, namely that it can avoid the big red button under the desk for so long.

We avoided it since 1945 and most of that period was far more unsettle then any thing in the foreseeable future.

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Would I be right in assuming that you believe that nothing caused nothing to become everything?

You had no problem in a god coming out of nowhere it would seem so why not use Occam razor and get rid of an unneeded god?

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The theory goes that whatever caused the universe to be, would be outside the laws of said universe, namely, infinite. Something that is infinite doesnt appear from nowhere. It was always there.

The difference between us, seems to be the perception of the likelyhood of events. You will look at life, the complexity of a cell, the earth and the universe and attribute no root cause, you will say it just happened by itself, and that is your most likely explanation. I however, see intelligent design, smart programming, and attribute a cause. I do not have enough faith to believe that it occured by accident. Your view of an acceptable wager on your course of events will be drastically different from those that I attribute. You will refuse to believe that something that you cannot define or quantify can exist, and I will refuse to believe that life can design itself.

What we have here is two sides to an arguement that will go back and forth, achieving little to nothing as burden of proof lacks from both sides. I do however think that you should always stick to what you believe until you are properly convinced otherwise. I wish you all the very best Bill, it has been a pleasure doing parley with you

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@Smileyrius,

Well with the magic thinking there is no longer any further reason to do any more research just as the Greek had no reason to look into the cause of lighting bolts as everyone knew about them

You in other word gain nothing by assuming a god.

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@BillRM,

When one states opinion as fact, it belies ones motive as more emotive, than logical. A shame.

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@bob600,

The greatest words are: "It is finished."
Smoke that for eternity... Sad

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Congratulations...it must be wonderful to not have any intellectual curiosity. Reminds me of Terry Jones in Gainsville Florida.

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@bob600,

bob600 wrote: "Of course theists also know, to have doubts would make them agnostics, so to be a theist means you must KNOW."

Not so fast 'grasshopper'... Just because a conclusion is that there *should* be a God, doesn't mean *certainty*. Vicarious contact with a creation (through senses) does not imply direct contact with God (through senses) - the difference between *believing* and *knowing*. Perspective plays a big part in shaping *perceptions* (which is what we have to use in making conclusions).

Reasoning theists have concluded that the evidence of the complex universe around us (with all its micro and macro interactive intricacies) point to an intelligent agent writing the rules by which it all interacts... that such a system springing from nothing "by accident" is so remote as to have a probability very close to zero (and even remoter that the conditions would be "just right" for life - about 250 key parameters in very tight tolerances at the same time).

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@yoda55,

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Reasoning theists have concluded that the evidence of the complex universe around us (with all its micro and macro interactive intricacies) point to an intelligent agent writing the rules by which it all interacts... that such a system springing from nothing "by accident" is so remote as to have a probability very close to zero (and even remoter that the conditions would be "just right" for life - about 250 key parameters in very tight tolerances at the same time).

Nonsense as all you done is to replaced a complex universe without an intelligent agent behind it for a infinite complex behind the scène god instead.

Moving the question one step backward and adding infinite complexity by so doing and for zero gain.

Footnote I was around 11 or 12 when I saw the hole in the logic that in order to explain a complex universe you need to introduce a far far more complex god out of thin air.

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@bob600,

bob600 said: "...then he/it would be so beyond my understanding that his presence would be meaningless to me."

I'm sure that your father probably hadn't told you everything in his past. Some moments, I'm sure, were not meant to be shared with you (until you were old enough to understand, if ever). *Knowing* your father is a faulty perception, and therefore not tied to reality - only to your subjective sense of it.

If a God were as complex as you indicated (and would have to be, in order to achieve omniscient/ omnipotent/ omnipresent qualities), then any plan he had (which included you) wouldn't be meaningless - unless you think you're meaningless.

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@BillRM,

I'm taking a big assumption, so correct misperception - you think that the universe we occupy is accidental, yes? Do you ascribe to the "big bang" theory?

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@yoda55,

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I'm taking a big assumption, so correct misperception - you think that the universe we occupy is accidental, yes? Do you ascribe to the "big bang" theory?

Define accidental?

A lot of things/processes in nature are far from random events however does not have any intelligent agents behind them.

The far too human habit is when we happen to reach an end point for our current understandings of the universe is to wheel out the gods.

Do not understand lightening and lightening bolts no problem created a Zeus who throws lightening bolts around for fun and as a weapon.

The problem with that is once you created a Zeus you put an end to trying to gain further understandings of lightening.

Once you created a magical intelligent agent behind the birth of the universe you had placed a similar barrier to human understanding of the birth of the universe.

In other word you gain nothing by assuming that beyond some point is the region of the gods.

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@BillRM,

Can you answer the two questions "yes" or "no"??

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@yoda55,

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Can you answer the two questions "yes" or "no"??

The universe is not that simple my friend for simple yes and no.

You placed emotional loaded words like accident for the “reason” for the universe to came into being and no I do not think that the universe came into being due to an accident but by processes we currently have no understandings of just like out ancestors did not have any understandings of lightening.

And once more I see little reason to wheel in some god to wave his/her “hands” and create or start or whatever the universe.

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@BillRM,

It's interesting that you'll make comments like "Nonsense as all you done is to..", and then allude to "...by processes we currently have no understandings of ..."

If you belittle others' reasoning and wave your own hands and say "too complex", why not offer your thoughts? Or, is it that you prefer taking pot-shots at others comments - finding it easier than to suggest some of your own (so others could do likewise to you)?... Convenient tactic, but not constructive.

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@yoda55,

BillRM is perfectly entitled to take intellectual "pot-shots" at theists on the basis that they give succour to the beliefs of those who take actual "pot-shots" at all of us. (Richard Harris) In any case, demands for yes-no statements about "beliefs" are futile, since belief is a function of zeitgeist i.e. social paradigmatics. (Thomas Kuhn)

...and to quote the physicist Niels Bohr

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The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth.

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@yoda55,

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If you belittle others' reasoning and wave your own hands and say "too complex", why not offer your thoughts? Or, is it that you prefer taking pot-shots at others comments - finding it easier than to suggest some of your own (so others could do likewise to you)?... Convenient tactic, but not constructive.

Why is it so hard for humans to accept that at the moment we do not know how something work or came to be?

We dislike not knowing so must we then end up creating a god that then results in greatly slowing our future understandings.

Stating that the universe started due to some god is the same as stating that the lightening bolt that kill my friend was due to a mad and annoy Zeus.

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@bob600,

This is a perceived absolute truth that He doesn't exist. Unless you're claiming to know the absolute truth of everything, then you essentially know nothing. you only THINK you know. You even said yourself by saying that it would be beyond your understanding...quite the foolish statement.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Why is it so hard for humans to accept that at the moment we do not know how something work or came to be?

That's funny because you fail to see that science, itself, will never leave that moment. There's a saying: The more you know, the less you know. It also works both ways, try to ponder it for a bit.

BillRM wrote:

We dislike not knowing so must we then end up creating a god that then results in greatly slowing our future understandings.

This is also funny because all understand is really going nowhere...the way I see it, they're just helping to keep the pace.

BillRM wrote:

Stating that the universe started due to some god is the same as stating that the lightening bolt that kill my friend was due to a mad and annoy Zeus.

Yet your beliefs basically amount to "boom" and "goo" (boom is big bang and goo is primordial ooze which started evolution). I don't actually know if these are your belief's or not. Considering that you seem to have a sort of hatred for ideology, I would assume that you were some sort of materialist.

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@Chights47,

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This is a perceived absolute truth that He doesn't exist. Unless you're claiming to know the absolute truth of everything, then you essentially know nothing. you only THINK you know. You even said yourself by saying that it would be beyond your understanding...quite the foolish statement.

Once more for the hundred and one times you can not prove anything does not exist however you can show that the likelihood of a god behind the scene is the same order as the tooth fairy existing for real.

The odds of the Christian god existing is just a likely as the tooth fairy existing no more and not less.

So very unlikely that the odds approach zero.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

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This is a perceived absolute truth that He doesn't exist. Unless you're claiming to know the absolute truth of everything, then you essentially know nothing. you only THINK you know. You even said yourself by saying that it would be beyond your understanding...quite the foolish statement.

Once more for the hundred and one times you can not prove anything does not exist however you can show that the likelihood of a god behind the scene is the same order as the tooth fairy existing for real.

The odds of the Christian god existing is just a likely as the tooth fairy existing no more and not less.

So very unlikely that the odds approach zero.

You obviously can't grasp this idea, but I'll try and explain it in a better way. What is all proof based on? There are 2 different answers the first (which is the ultimate answer) is a persons perceptions, and the second is more proof. All of this "proof" of science is basically just an over elaboration of ideology. You wouldn't take a Christians word that God is real, so why would you do that for any other? Have even done any of your own research in any field of science? Have you contributed anything new and extrodinary and are known worldwide for it? My guess would be no, so you're entire argument basically just amounts to castle in the sky.

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I KNOW God does not exist

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