18
   

I KNOW God does not exist

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 01:25 pm
@reasoning logic,
The more correct question is do you share the same faith as your parents as in all likelihood she does.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 01:27 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

I did not think that you made yourself believe I was just pointing out that no matter how hard I tried I was not able to make myself believe.
Do you think that it could be our environment?

Do you think that you would see God differently if you were born into a different environment?

Is it possible that you could believe in a completely different God and have a somewhat different value system if you were born in a different country?


I wasn't born a Christian. Many Muslims have converted to Christianity. Many Christians have converted to Islam. Baptists have become Mormons, etc. So saying it all depends upon your environment and what your parents taught you doesn't seem to be universal, does it?

I am off to the grocery store in case you ask me another question. I don't want you to think I am ignoring you. I will check back in with you when I get home.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 01:28 pm
@BillRM,
I was just curious as to the logic you use.
What I've seen thus far is remarkably homogeneous to the logic applied in bigotry and racism.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 01:30 pm
@BillRM,
That would be the logical conclusion but even logic is not 100% If I am not mistaken it tries to find probability!

I was raised christian but we did not attend church very much.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 01:42 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
I wasn't born a Christian. Many Muslims have converted to Christianity. Many Christians have converted to Islam. Baptists have become Mormons, etc. So saying it all depends upon your environment and what your parents taught you doesn't seem to be universal, does it?


I do think that you are being very logical but I also think that we should take into account that when a person changes to a different belief system, there has to be a new exposure, a new environment for the mind to ponder!
Was the causation a product of their environment? Maybe their environment has evolved and now include other ideas?

Someone had to bring this new info into their environment and they had to see similar values in it compared to the belief that which they previously held as being correct
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 01:43 pm
@Arella Mae,
Here are the rules to public anything on wikipedia and if you do not follow the rules your article will not last long or your edit on an existing article.

As in most things your simple understanding of how Wikipedia work is far from true.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wikipedia:VerifiabilityFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search

This page in a nutshell: Other people have to be able to check that you didn't just make things up. This means that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.
The Five Pillars
Core content policies
Neutral point of view
No original research
Verifiability
Other content policies
Article titles
Biographies of living persons
What Wikipedia is not

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.

To show that it is not original research, all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source appropriate for the content in question, but in practice you do not need to attribute everything. This policy requires that all quotations and anything challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed in the form of an inline citation that directly supports the material.[1] For how to write citations, see Citing sources.

This policy applies to all material in the mainspace—articles, lists, sections of articles, and captions—without exception, and in particular to material about living persons. Anything that requires but lacks a source may be removed, and unsourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately.

Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's core content policies, along with No original research and Neutral point of view. These policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should familiarize themselves with the key points of all three. Articles must also comply with the copyright policy.

Contents [hide]
1 When a reliable source is required
1.1 Anything challenged or likely to be challenged
1.2 Burden of evidence
2 Reliable sources
2.1 What counts as a reliable source
2.2 Newspaper and magazine blogs
2.3 Reliable sources noticeboard and WP:IRS
3 Sources that are usually not reliable
3.1 Questionable sources
3.2 Self-published sources
3.3 Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves
3.4 Wikipedia and sources that mirror or use it
4 Accessibility
4.1 Access to sources
4.2 Non-English sources
5 Other issues
5.1 Tagging a sentence, section, or article
5.2 Exceptional claims require exceptional sources
6 Reliable sources and other principles
6.1 Copyright and plagiarism
6.2 Neutrality
6.3 Notability
6.4 Original research
7 See also
8 Notes
9 Further reading


When a reliable source is required
Anything challenged or likely to be challengedPolicy shortcuts:
WP:CHALLENGE
WP:CHALLENGED

All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable published source using an inline citation. Cite the source clearly and precisely, with page numbers where appropriate.

Burden of evidencePolicy shortcuts:
WP:BURDEN
WP:UNSOURCED

The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. You may remove any material lacking a reliable source that directly supports it. How quickly this should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article. Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. It has always been good practice to try to find and cite supporting sources yourself. Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living people; see here for how the BLP policy applies to groups.[2]

Reliable sourcesPolicy shortcut:
WP:SOURCES

What counts as a reliable sourceThe word "source" in Wikipedia has three meanings: the work itself (a document, article, paper, or book), the creator of the work (for example, the writer), and the publisher of the work (for example, The New York Times). All three can affect reliability.

Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Source material must have been published (made available to the public in some form); unpublished materials are not considered reliable. Sources should directly support the material presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made. The appropriateness of any source depends on the context. In general, the best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments; as a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source.

Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science. But they are not the only reliable sources in such areas. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals, and mainstream newspapers. Electronic media may also be used, subject to the same criteria. See details in Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Wikipedia:Search engine test

Newspaper and magazine blogsPolicy shortcut:
WP:NEWSBLOG

Several newspapers host columns they call blogs. These are acceptable as sources if the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. In March 2010, the Press Complaints Commission in the UK ruled that journalists' blogs hosted on the websites of newspapers or magazines are subject to the same standards expected of comment pieces in that organization's print editions.[3] Where a news organization publishes an opinion piece, attribute the writer (e.g. "Jane Smith has suggested..."). Never use posts left by readers as sources. For blogs that are not reliable sources, see below.

Reliable sources noticeboard and WP:IRS Further information: Wikipedia:Reliable sources noticeboard and Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources
To discuss the reliability of a specific source for a particular statement, consult the reliable sources noticeboard, which seeks to apply this policy to particular cases. For a guideline discussing the reliability of particular types of sources, see Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (WP:IRS). In the case of inconsistency between this policy and the WP:IRS guideline, or any other guideline related to sourcing, the policy has priority.

Sources that are usually not reliablePolicy shortcuts:
WP:NOTRELIABLE
WP:NOTRS
WP:QS

Questionable sourcesQuestionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or lacking meaningful editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional, or which rely heavily on rumor and personal opinion. Questionable sources should be used only as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves; see below. They are unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties.

Self-published sourcesPolicy shortcuts:
WP:SPS
WP:SELFPUBLISH
WP:BLOGS

Further information: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Avoid self-published sources
Anyone can create a personal web page or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published media, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs, Internet forum postings, and tweets, are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so.

Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.


Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselvesPolicy shortcuts:
WP:ABOUTSELF
WP:SELFPUB
WP:TWITTER
WP:SOCIALMEDIA

Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the requirement in the case of self-published sources that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

1.the material is not unduly self-serving;
2.it does not involve claims about third parties;
3.it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
4.there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
5.the article is not based primarily on such sources.
This policy also applies to pages on social networking sites such as Twitter, Tumblr, and Facebook.

Wikipedia and sources that mirror or use itPolicy shortcut:
WP:CIRCULAR

Do not use articles from Wikipedia or from websites that mirror its content as sources, because this would amount to self-reference. Similarly, do not use sources that present material originating from Wikipedia to support that same material in Wikipedia, as this would create circular sourcing. Wikipedia may be cited with caution as a primary source of information on itself, such as in articles about itself.

AccessibilityAccess to sourcesPolicy shortcuts:
WP:PAYWALL
WP:SOURCEACCESS

See also: Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange and Wikipedia:Offline sources
Verifiability in this context means anyone should be able to check that material in a Wikipedia article has been published by a reliable source. The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources: some online sources may require payment, while some print sources may be available only in university libraries. WikiProject Resource Exchange may be able to assist in obtaining source material.

Non-English sourcesPolicy shortcuts:
WP:NOENG
WP:NONENG

See also: Wikipedia:Translators available
Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, assuming English sources of equal quality and relevance are available.

When quoting a source in a different language, provide the original text and an English translation, either in the body of the article or in a footnote.
When citing a non-English source for information, it is not always necessary to provide a translation. However, if a question should arise as to whether the non-English original actually supports the information, relevant portions of the original and a translation should be given in a footnote, as a courtesy.[4]
Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians, but translations by Wikipedians are preferred over machine translations. When posting original source material, be careful not to violate copyright; see the fair-use guideline.

Other issuesTagging a sentence, section, or articleFurther information: Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles
If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider tagging a sentence with the {{citation needed}} template by writing {{cn}} or {{fact}}. Other templates are available here for tagging sections or entire articles. Alternatively, leave a note on the talk page requesting a source, or move the material there. To request verification that a reference supports the text, tag it with {{verification needed}}. Material that fails verification may be tagged with {{failed verification}} or removed. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living people should be removed immediately and not tagged or moved to the talk page.

Exceptional claims require exceptional sourcesPolicy shortcut:
WP:REDFLAG

See also: Wikipedia:Fringe theories
Exceptional claims require high-quality sources.[5] Red flags that should prompt extra caution include:

surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources;
reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, or against an interest they had previously defended;
claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living people. This is especially true when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them.
Reliable sources and other principlesCopyright and plagiarismFurther information: Wikipedia:Copyright, Wikipedia:Plagiarism, Wikipedia:MOS#Attribution, and Wikipedia:CITE#In-text attribution
Take care to avoid plagiarism and breaches of copyright when using sources. Summarize source material in your own words as far as possible; when quoting or closely paraphrasing a source use an inline citation, and in-text attribution where appropriate.

NeutralityFurther information: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
All articles must adhere to the Neutral point of view policy (NPOV), fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view. Tiny-minority views need not be included, except in articles devoted to them. Where there is disagreement between sources, use in-text attribution: "John Smith argues that X, while Paul Jones maintains that Y," followed by an inline citation. Sources themselves do not need to maintain a neutral point of view; indeed many reliable sources are not neutral. Our job as editors is simply to present what the reliable sources say.

NotabilityFurther information: Wikipedia:Notability
If no reliable third-party sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.

Original researchFurther information: Wikipedia:No original research
The "No original research" policy (NOR) is closely related to the Verifiability policy. Among its requirements are:

1.All material in Wikipedia articles must be attributable to a reliable published source. This means that a source must exist for it, whether or not it is cited in the article.
2.Sources must support the material clearly and directly: drawing inferences from multiple sources to advance a novel position is prohibited by the NOR policy.[4]
3.Base articles largely on reliable secondary sources. While primary sources are appropriate in some cases, relying on them can be problematic. For more information, see the Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources section of the NOR policy, and the Misuse of primary sources section of the BLP policy.
See alsoListen to this page (info/dl)

This audio file was created from a revision of Verifiability dated 2006-12-04, and does not reflect subsequent edits to the page. (Audio help)
More spoken pagesWikipedia:Citation clutter, an essay
Wikipedia:Core content policies, an essay
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine), a guideline
Wikipedia:List of free online resources
Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles
Wikipedia:When to cite, an essay
WikiProject Fact and Reference Check
WikiProject Resource Exchange
Argument from authority
Notes1.^ See the discussion about sources in WP:NOR that describes summarizing materials in your own words, leaving nothing implied that goes beyond the sources.
2.^ Wales, Jimmy. "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information", WikiEN-l, May 16, 2006: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative "I heard it somewhere" pseudo information is to be tagged with a "needs a cite" tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons."
3.^ Plunkett, John. "Rod Liddle censured by the PCC", The Guardian, March 29, 2010.
4.^ a b When there is dispute about whether a piece of text is fully supported by a given source, direct quotes and other relevant details from the source should be provided to other editors as a courtesy. Do not violate the source's copyright when doing so.
5.^ Hume, David. An Enquiry concerning Human Understanding, Forgotten Books, 1984; first published 1748, p. 86: "That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish; and even in that case there is a mutual destruction of arguments, and the superior only gives us an assurance suitable to that degree of force, which remains, after deducting the inferior."
Further readingWales, Jimmy. "Insist on sources", WikiEN-l, July 19, 2006: "I really want to encourage a much stronger culture which says: it is better to have no information, than to have information like this, with no sources."
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 01:50 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
wasn't born a Christian


A non free thinker like yourself change religion as an adult!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm my next most likely guess would be that you change to match your husband faith.

Quote:
Many Muslims have converted to Christianity


Oh it is my understanding that a large percent of Muslims in the world view becoming a Christian as a serous crime/sin that can in some Muslim control countries result in a slow and painful death.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 01:55 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
wasn't born a Christian



A non free thinker like yourself change religion as an adult!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm my next most likely guess would be that you change to match your husband faith.


She may be meaning that she was born an atheist and if that is what she was meaning then I would have to agree with her.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 02:02 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
She may be meaning that she was born an atheist and if that is what she was meaning then I would have to agree with her.


Well it is possible my brother in law have children and grandchildren who are right wing Christians and he and his wife are non-religion left wingers.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 02:07 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
Many Muslims have converted to Christianity


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://deathpenaltynews.blogspot.com/2011/01/afghans-face-death-penalty-for.html

Afghans face death penalty for converting to Christianity
The U.S. government and some international Christian organizations are lobbying the Afghan government to release two men who could be executed after being arrested on apostasy charges for converting to Christianity.


The U.S. has called on Afghan leaders to respect the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that Afghanistan has endorsed, which theoretically protects freedom of religion for invidiuals. Yet, evangelizing and converting to a non-Muslim religion are forbidden by the Afghan consitution and carry the death penalty.


According to AFP, 22-year-old Afghan Enayat is one of thousands of non-Muslims in Afghanistan who fear for their lives:


"I used to carry my bible everywhere -- I don't any more," says the baby-faced convert, using a pseudonym for fear of being identified and speaking to AFP at the home of a trusted friend, west of Kabul. "I don't want to call myself a Christian, people would think I'm immoral."


Missionaries suspected of trying to convert others to Christianity have been killed in recent years, including eight foreign medics accused by the Taliban who were shot dead in north Afghanistan in August. However, the Christian aid group they represented which had worked in the country for 45 years said it never proselytized.


The two Afghans under custody were arrested in May after a local television broadcast footage of men being baptized and reciting Christian prayers in Farsi, which triggered angry protests.


One of the men imprisoned, Musa Sayed, who works for the International Committee of the Red Cross, claimed in a letter that he has been beaten, raped and humiliated "day and night".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: The Examiner, January 27, 2011

Tehran (AsiaNews/Agencies) – Iran’s Supreme Court has called for the death sentence of Rev Youcef Nadarkhani to be re-examined by the lower court that convicted him. He was found guilty of apostasy even though this offence is not covered by Iranian law. Rev Nadarkhani’s defence attorney had appealed the verdict to the Supreme Court.
Iranian sources say the conviction was not overturned. “According to one source the Supreme Court has agreed with the verdict ‘as it is based on fatwas of Ayatollahs Khomeiny, Khamenei and Makarem Shirazi’.”

Ayatollah Khomeiny was the first Supreme leader of Iran, and is considered the father of the 1979 Iranian Revolution, Ayatollah Khamenei is the current supreme leader, whilst Ayatollah Shirazi is one of Iran’s most influential religious scholars.

Whilst agreeing with the death sentence, the sources noted, “The Supreme Court pointed out procedural flaws and is asking the lower court to re-examine the case. This is the only binding point of the ruling.”

“Is there a guarantee that Youcef will not be executed between now and the time of the re-examination?’ According to one Iranian source it seems there is no such guarantee.”...
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 03:54 pm
@BillRM,
In case you haven't noticed, I'm not discussing anything with you. Why should I? You cuss, you imply I am lying, etc., etc. So Bill, seriously, put a sock in it.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 03:56 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
I wasn't born a Christian. Many Muslims have converted to Christianity. Many Christians have converted to Islam. Baptists have become Mormons, etc. So saying it all depends upon your environment and what your parents taught you doesn't seem to be universal, does it?


I do think that you are being very logical but I also think that we should take into account that when a person changes to a different belief system, there has to be a new exposure, a new environment for the mind to ponder!
Was the causation a product of their environment? Maybe their environment has evolved and now include other ideas?

Someone had to bring this new info into their environment and they had to see similar values in it compared to the belief that which they previously held as being correct


Why does it have to be anything more than I heard and I believed? You and others may require empirical proof. I don't. Why? I don't know. It's a question I can't answer.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 04:10 pm
@Arella Mae,
That seems to be a honest answer to me. Thank you
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 04:17 pm
@reasoning logic,
You're very welcome. Believe me, sometimes I really wish I had the answer as to why some believe and some don't. I finally just accepted that some do and some don't.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 05:03 pm
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

You're very welcome. Believe me, sometimes I really wish I had the answer as to why some believe and some don't. I finally just accepted that some do and some don't.


Because some people don't care if their beliefs are true or not. They don't care about truth they just believe because they want to. Other people want to know if their beliefs are true or not and so they look for what is true. If it can not be determined then there is absolutely no good reason to believe in something that you can't prove.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 05:07 pm
@Krumple,
That would be your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 05:09 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
In case you haven't noticed, I'm not discussing anything with you. Why should I? You cuss, you imply I am lying, etc., etc. So Bill, seriously, put a sock in it.


Sorry dear heart but you have no control over my actions or my postings.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 05:12 pm
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

That would be your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it.


You can call it an opinion if you want but every other aspect of your life is based off that principle. Everything you do in your every day is based off that idea. You wouldn't be able to do anything without it yet you don't even realize you are doing it. Yet when it comes to christianity you suspend that tool you have been using but if you actually did use it on christianity you would see that it is unsupportable.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 05:17 pm
@Krumple,
You know nothing about me or my life. Why do you care what I base my decisions on? They don't effect your life. I don't even know you. I don't like to lie, steal, cheat, etc. I don't cuss. I don't like to hurt people's feelings. I rescue animals. I am faithful to my husband. I have a job. But, because I believe in God you somehow seem to think that makes me what? Less than you because you can do those things and don't believe in God? I don't think you are less than me because you do not believe.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jul, 2011 05:25 pm
@Arella Mae,
I don't think that Krumble was trying to be mean I only think that he was pointing out that we use logic as often as we can and to the best of our ability but we do not use it with emotions, religions or traditions and the list goes on. I will be honest, what I just said may not be completely true!
 

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