18
   

I KNOW God does not exist

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 03:25 pm
@Arella Mae,



http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/homosexualuc.htm

But how accurate is the claim that the Bible condemns homosexuality as a sin? At best the record is ambivalent. There are seven biblical passages that are regularly cited by fundamentalist Christians and their fellow travelers to justify their condemnation of homosexuality. Three are in the Old Testament and four are in the New Testament. However, three of the four found in the New Testament are highly suspect and appear to refer to sexual anomalies such as temple prostitution, pederasty or forced sexual activity which are quite unrelated to homosexuality. So the biblical texts that actually condemn homosexuality as we today understand it, are only four in the entire Bible and none of them, interestingly enough, is found is the Gospels. According to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Jesus never said a word about homosexuality. Given the all consuming nature of the current ecclesiastical debates on this issue that fact comes as a shock. Jesus does talk about those who are victims of prejudice like the Samaritans, and those who are marginalized and rejected like the lepers, but he never says a word about anyone's sexual orientation. Perhaps church leaders should contemplate the possibility that they are, as one man once suggested, "making much of that which cannot matter much to God."

When we turn to examine these four biblical proof texts, other insights develop. The first passage is found in the Book of Genesis, and relates the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. That narrative has given us the rather inelegant words sodomy, sodomite and sodomize. It is a strange story about ancient middle eastern hospitality laws and the right of the people of any town to harass and to violate sexually, any strangers to whom no fellow citizen has extended the protection of hospitality. This failure of hospitality left strangers at the mercy of the base elements of the city.

Humiliating an unprotected visitor by forcing him to act like a woman in the sex act, was the supreme insult in these cruel and insensitive days. That is the underlying reality described in this biblical episode. Lot, Abraham's nephew, gave his protection to two male visitors at the end of the day when preparations for sexual abuse had already begun. The men of Sodom were furious and sought to take their intended victims by force. It is interesting that every time this story is referred to in other texts of the Bible it is the sin of inhospitality not homosexuality that is its focus. The climax of the story comes when Lot is judged by God to be righteous and is thus spared when the city of Sodom is destroyed. Yet Lot, seeking to protect these male visitors , who were said in the text to be angels, from being violated, offered to make his two virgin daughters available to the mob to be gang raped. After all they were only women! Later in this same story the "righteous" Lot has sex with these same two daughters and impregnates them. I never hear this narrative quoted to affirm incest! Yet this strange biblical passage continues to be used to condemn homosexuality. Perhaps those who quote it in this manner might want to read the whole story!

Next there are two passages in the book of Leviticus which are part of the Torah. Leviticus 18 condemns a man for 'lying with a man as with a woman" and Leviticus 20 requires the death penalty for this offence. First, it needs to be noted that even John Paul II, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson, all of whom regularly condemn homosexuality as a sin condemned by scripture, refrain from calling for the death penalty as the punishment for this offence. They know that a campaign for the execution of homosexual people would not be tolerated so in a pattern of what might be called "selective literalism" this verse of the Bible is simply ignored.

Second, one wonders why several other Torah rules have been generally ignored while this one is elevated to the status of "the word of God." The Torah prescribes a kosher diet which fundamentalists today ignore. The Torah says that a person cannot make a garment of two different kinds of fabric. It says that those who worship a false god should be executed and so should those children who are disobedient and who talk back to their parents! It orders people to observe the Sabbath by refraining from all activity save worship on Saturday. It assumes that slavery is a legitimate social institution, while defining women as the property of men. A book containing this kind of dubious ethical teaching hardly seems to be a competent authority to be used to make moral judgements about homosexuality.

The premier New Testament passage condemning homosexuality is found in Romans 1 and is from the hand of Paul. It is the strangest of all the biblical arguments. Paul suggests in this passage that God will punish those people who do not worship God properly. The punishment will be that God will confuse their sexual identities so that men will lie with men and women with women. What a strange God! Thus saith the Lord; "If you don't worship me properly I will turn you into being gays and lesbians." I have a hard time imagining any one worshiping such a capricious and egocentric deity.The other issue that this passage raises is, what is going on in Paul that he would offer such a weird argument? Is this an autobiographical note? Does it illumine those passages in Paul's other epistles where he exhibits his passion for proper worship, for advancing beyond all his peers in piety? But the pursuit of that thesis will have to wait for next month's column.

Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 03:25 pm
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

All I am trying to get across is NONE OF US have the right to belittle each other because we are different or believe differently.

None of us KNOWS whether God exists or not. I believe he does and you believe he doesn't but WE DON'T KNOW.



So do you actually say the same about goblins and flying pink elephants? There comes a point when you can be certain about something because of the current amount of information you have available. Sure goblins "might" exist somewhere but I have never actually seen one and no one else has either so it is safe to conclude that they probably don't exist. The same is true for gods, there is nothing that supports their existence at all yet there are those who believe in them anyways.

I am 99.99% certain that there is no god. That last 0.01% is open for the possibility but more than likely it will never amount to anything so it is pretty safe to say I am absolutely certain there is no god.

All you have to do is change the question slightly and I bet you would agree. For example, do you believe that Zeus exists?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 03:27 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
Romans 1:26-27 - King James Version (KJV)

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


So if you do not worship god correctly god will turn you gay as a punishment!!!!!!!!

AM I love it.....................

I just got to read the NT once more............
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 03:36 pm
So much for free thinking eh, Bill? You have to google what the bible says about homosexuality because you can't figure it out for yourself? You find some website that agrees with you and you claim it's gospel? I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 03:41 pm
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

Jesus did not say for anyone to bring anyone before him so he could be slain (Luke 19:27 paraphrased). This is a "fav" many have tried to sneak by before. IT IS A PARABLE. Jesus was not being literal telling anyone to bring anyone to kill anyone. Go back up to verse eleven and you will see Jesus was speaking a PARABLE.


Yes it is a parable, very good. But the point is, what is it saying? Parables are meant to say something without specifically saying it. It is saying those who do not believe in jesus should be killed. In other words you should torture those who do not believe in him. A very nice sentiment by the way and anyone who actually accepts that sort of justice as a just way is pretty sad.

Arella Mae wrote:

I'm off on Saturdays thank you. I pointed out the verses on homosexuality because Bill asked me where it was in the NT. He brought the subject up. I did not.


I bet you work just not your job on saturday as is instructed that you shouldn't do any labor at all. I bet you do. In fact a guy in the bible is killed for picking up sticks for firewood on the sabbath.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 03:45 pm
@BillRM,
It is pretty clear bill that bible condemns homosexuality. Not only that but there are letters by paul that are not in the bible where he berates homosexuality as well, which has led some scholars into thinking that paul actually might be a closest homosexual because it happens on several occasions in letters to early christian leaders.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 04:00 pm
@Arella Mae,
Strange is it not you let out this part AM where god turn straights into gays as a punishment.

I love a god who would turn straight men and women gay as a punishment.

How in the "hell" did I miss that in reading the NT?

Thanks for bringing it to my attention AM.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 04:07 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Strange is it not you let out this part AM where god turn straights into gays as a punishment.

I love a god who would turn straight men and women gay as a punishment.

How in the "hell" did I miss that in reading the NT?


Well you bring up a good point Bill. I see it as a reoccurring theme within christianity. If you think about it, the fall of man is a similar case. Why is it a god would put something he didn't want touched near people who he didn't want them to touch the thing he didn't want touched? If he were omniscient as many christians claim then wouldn't he have foreseen that they would sin? Seems rather silly to condemn them of something he already knew would happen. So why didn't he just separate the two things so it wouldn't happen?

It would be like handing a ten year old a fully loaded gun and not expect them to eventually injure someone with it. The only difference is god would be aware of what would actually occur where as you, could only guess at what could possibly happen. Yet you do the logical thing and not hand them a fully loaded gun. So why didn't god do the logical thing? Unless that god purposely wanted to let what happened happen?

I don't honestly believe the story anyways, because it is so convoluted and full of holes. But I state it as a way to make my point.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 04:10 pm
@Krumple,
Jesus NOWHERE in scripture tells us to kill anyone. Turn the other cheek, bless those that curse you, etc., etc. He said I know you have been told to return eye for an eye BUT I TELL YOU, do not return evil for evil, nor insult for insult. It's like I said, when you are told we aren't to do the things YOU say we are you don't like it. Go figure.

Is that the best you can do? You are going to attack me about keeping the sabbath? Don't you realize keeping the sabbath is not in the NT? Nine of the ten commandments are but keeping the sabbath is not.

I have never claimed to be sin free krumple. I did not bring up gays, Bill did.
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 04:13 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Strange is it not you let out this part AM where god turn straights into gays as a punishment.

I love a god who would turn straight men and women gay as a punishment.

How in the "hell" did I miss that in reading the NT?

Thanks for bringing it to my attention AM.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.


God let's us do what we want, yes, but there is a consequence for it. I didn't make the rules and I didn't write the bible. But I sure don't get my "understanding" from some site I googled.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 04:13 pm
@Krumple,
Paul had a few hang ups in the sexual area to say the least and he was not one of the twelve apostles coming into the game late after Jesus death or his return to heaven as I am sure we are all are aware of.

Unlike Jesus he did not approve of marriage as it was just better to marry then to burn with passion if you could not control yourself.

One wonder how safe young boys was around him. Drunk
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 04:25 pm
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

Jesus NOWHERE in scripture tells us to kill anyone.


Another opportunity to point out your ignorance of the bible.

Matthew 15:4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 04:29 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
God let's us do what we want, yes, but there is a consequence for it. I didn't make the rules and I didn't write the bible. But I sure don't get my "understanding" from some site I googled
.

So knowledge is worth less depending on where you happen to gather it even if the knowledge happen to be correct?

Strange thinking but then trying to attack me on this thread because I think that adults have a right to private consensus sex acts even SM or wife swapping is strange also.

Not to mention trying to label me pro child porn for not thinking that a teenage girl or her boyfriend should be send to prison and label sex offenders for life for sharing naked pictures with each other.

The two charges by the way having nothing to do with the subject at hand any more then it matter where I gather my information as long as it is correct and to the point.

Hmm you seems to have as many sexual hang ups as Paul as a matter of fact.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 04:44 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Strange is it not you let out this part AM where god turn straights into gays as a punishment.

I love a god who would turn straight men and women gay as a punishment.

How in the "hell" did I miss that in reading the NT?

Thanks for bringing it to my attention AM.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.


That DOES NOT say that God made them gay. It says God gave them over to what they were doing. He let them continue in the things they did and he was done with them.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 04:48 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
That DOES NOT say that God made them gay. It says God gave them over to what they were doing. He let them continue in the things they did and he was done with them.


That is not how I read it...............as otherwise you would need to assume that god is holding them back against their wills from being gay and then released them because he was mad at them over other matters.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 04:54 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:

Jesus NOWHERE in scripture tells us to kill anyone.


Another opportunity to point out your ignorance of the bible.

Matthew 15:4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.




Why do you start at verse 4 and misquote it at that? IT doesn't say put to death. It says die the death. Verses 1 through 3 tell you something. They tell you to whom Jesus was speaking to and why. He was talking to the Pharisees who always boasted that they followed the law and were accusing the disciples of not following the tradition of the elders in washing before they ate. The Pharisees were NOT following the law they boasted about and and Jesus pointed that out and the fact they were hypocrites because of it.

I am not a bible scholar but if you tell me the bible says something I am going to go read that whole chapter so I can get the context and know what is truly being said and why it was said.
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 05:35 pm
@Arella Mae,
It is written about two dozen ways in English, so the exact phrasing is not even important. But if you want to get literal about that, you might as well check the greek. Do you know greek?

I am aware of the situation and why he was speaking. It is a pretty common occurrence in the NT. He is constantly being berated for not adhering to the old testament and this is just another example of it. But he does use the statement in a way that should be just by pointing it out. You can tell by the lines before and after the one I quoted.

Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 05:50 pm
@Krumple,
Not sure what you are saying. You were trying to point out that Jesus DID say kill and he did not. That was the point of the discussion.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 06:23 pm
@Arella Mae,
Too bad AM you do not know science or some other useful area of knowledge as well as you know your bible.
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 06:44 pm
@BillRM,
And it is too bad you don't know the bible as well as you think you do. Don't think I didn't notice you ignoring the fact there were verses addressing homosexuality in the NT. Why, even Krumple told you there were!
 

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