Why believe in god? The theist perspective.

@Ionus,

No, and that would be a monk, not a priest.

I am naturally 80% bald naturally, I just decided the quick and clean way is easier!

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@George,

The first time i saw the cartoon, without even reading it, i burst out laughing.

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@IRFRANK,

Quote:

Well, I'm not sure I'm willing to join the 'argument'.

I'm not interested in changing anyone's beliefs, nor do I expect to.

Buddhists don't have missionaries. In fact, we generally practice the approach that someone must ask about our practice more than once. We are glad to share our 'beliefs' but not to evangelize.

To me, the question of a God is moot. I don't think I have anyway of knowing the answer and it doesn't matter. How should I live is the question. Buddhism gives me those answers.

If the real question is Why believe in God? - If it's out of fear, I think that is misplaced

I would have been interested to hear what you might have to say about what your religion means to you & how it has impacted on the way you live your life, anyway, Frank. (As our one & only Buddhist representative here, so far. Wink

)
And I really don't think anyone here would think you were trying to convert them if you did so.
But absolutely no pressure if you'd prefer not to, OK? Smile

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@Francis,

Quote:

Yet, you haven't seen god and you believe he /she exists..

Have you seen galaxy collisions ?

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@msolga,

Buddhism means a great deal to me. I meditate and try to live according to Buddha's teachings, the dharma. There are many types of Buddhism but they are all based upon the Buddha's teachings. Buddha, or the one Buddha, as there are many, discovered the path to enlightenment. The middle way. Buddha simply means 'enlightened one'. The teaching is both simple and complex. There are many many books written on it but the basics are simple.

I read a lot of Buddhists teachings, it helps me understand the experiences I have and how I react to them. My thoughts and actions. Part of it is to go through life and enjoy and experience each moment. The present is all that there is. Appreciate each moment, don't fret over the past or worry about the future. It is natural to vary from that, I certainly do. You can read my posts here and see sometimes I get emotional and even angry. But don't live in that state. Let it go.

Karma is an important part. As most know, it means you get back what you put out. Treat others as you would like to be treated, etc. But it is more than that. The emotions and feelings you put into the world affect your own world to a large extent. This reality you are moving around in is affected by your thoughts toward it. It reflects your attitude.

Like I said, it's not about God or any god, or some other being that is in control. I think that is a cop out and irresponsible. If God makes it all happen, then how are we to respond? What difference does our actions make? They make a great deal of difference, from what I perceive. What we do does matter and we need to live like it does.

It just makes sense to me. Do No Harm.

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@IRFRANK,

Thank you for obliging, Frank.
I found what you said really interesting.
And you pose some very pertinent questions, too.
Speaking personally, I would choose Buddhism if I was going to become part of a religious movement. "Do No Harm" (plus so much more which I've learned about Buddhist philosophy) makes so much good sense to me.
(Not that I consider myself any sort of expert on the subject, mind.)

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From what I've seen among my theist friends, they derive comfort from their faith, comfort that they're not alone, and I've seen them become more devout when they're facing difficulties, like close deaths. I get the feeling their faith gets stronger, their connection to their god is stronger, and they themselves feel stronger and more able to accept and cope with their tragedy. They seem more at peace, and it really doesn't matter if there is a god or not, their faith gets them through their tragedy.

If that's what it takes for them, that should be allowed.

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@Mame,

um .. I don't think anyone was suggesting that it shouldn't be allowed.

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@msolga,

Quote:

um .. I don't think anyone was suggesting that it shouldn't be allowed.

Well no, but some rough-mannered atheists on this thread (like me Embarrassed

) have suggested that certain forms of worship were somehow laughable and wrong. Sorry, Mame (and Mame's theist friends). I have the utmost respect for theists. That's why I tagged the thread.

I think the theist perspective is difficult to justify logically, and for that reason theists often decline to speak up. From what I've seen, faith grows out of intuition. That does not mean it is misguided, and I agree that it does pay dividends throughout life--in terms of making one stronger and better able to cope with the hardships (and ecstasies) of life.

I can't praise faith beyond that. I'm a sullen atheist, I guess, sorry. Wink

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I'd like to make a few points, knowing that I probably shouldn't.
I don't mean to denigrate anyone's faith but I most likely will.

There are a few aspects of a belief in god(s) that I think lead to wrong actions.

Marching off to war, having God on your side. Whichever god.

Persecuting others non-harmful actions because of words in an ancient book.
Or worse, your interpretation of those words.

Asking unseen powers for special favors.

Relying on outside, supernatural forces for medical help, and refusing help that is available.

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I'm an atheist, but I can see pretty easily why you would believe in a higher power, or at least a creator - and the IDers have fed off it - the diversity of life and the complexity of ecosystems are truly amazing. I think Dawkins summarised the ID argument against evolution as "It's as if a tornado ripped through a junkyard and all the random flying bits of junk flew together and left behind a fully functioning jumbo jet". And it can seem like that - it's all just so 'miraculous'.

The other big driver for believing there's more to life than just life is not wanting to believe that once you or your loved ones die they are truly gone. That's pretty harsh. And to accept that is for many people a descent into despair at the pointlessness of existence. That's a pretty good reason to believe that death isn't an endpoint. And while there's no proof that there's anything after death (apart from anecdotes from people believing a deceased family members are watching out for them and the odd reported ghost sighting) there's no definitive proof there isn't anything after death either.

I believe that's why a number of people who wouldn't call themselves formally religious, would confess to some spirituality, that nagging feeling that there must be more.

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@msolga,

So exactly what was the point of all the sneering and snickering at Theists ? Not allowed to do nigger jokes any more ?

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@Ionus,

Perhaps you're disappointed that there was so little "snickering & sneering at theists", Ionus?
I didn't see any, myself.
I thought this was actually a tolerant & respectful discussion (as opposed to the usual bun fight) from both sides of the fence.
If that didn't suit you, then too bad.

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@msolga,

... & I hope this discussion continues, if there's enough interest.

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@msolga,

So you are unaware of any snickering and sneering at Theists ? None ?

Quote:

I didn't see any, myself.

Oh.

What will you be saying to this post
http://able2know.org/topic/164388-8#post-4425139
which you have already responded to and this post
http://able2know.org/topic/164388-8#post-4425303
which you have not responded to.

Quote:

I thought this was actually a tolerant & respectful discussion (as opposed to the usual bun fight) from both sides of the fence.
If that didn't suit you, then too bad.

Are you saying a tolerant and respectful discussion is unusual ?

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@Ionus,

You might consider those selected quotes as examples of atheist "bickering & sneering" ... which "prove" how disrespectful atheists have been to theists on this thread, but frankly I think you're clutching at straws.
I could point out considerably more unpleasant derogatory comments - some directed at me - if I wanted to.
But why would I want to?
What exactly would that achieve?
That one group has been more unpleasant or disrespectful than the other?
Seems like a pointless exercise to me.
And I'm simply not interested.

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@Mame,

Mame wrote:

If that's what it takes for them, that should be allowed.

Who suggested that anyone prohibit it?

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@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

I'd like to make a few points, knowing that I probably shouldn't.
I don't mean to denigrate anyone's faith but I most likely will.

There are a few aspects of a belief in god(s) that I think lead to wrong actions.

Marching off to war, having God on your side. Whichever god.

As opposed to marching off to war believing history, morality, justice or the virtues of your family are on your side?

As opposed to marching off to war and having only a thirst for power and destruction on your side?

Belief in God doesn't imply the belief that God favors all of one's thoughts and actions. That some who believe in God, might also believe they are favored by God is not essentially different from any other human conceit that bestows an individual with a sense of special purpose or allowance.

Persecuting others non-harmful actions because of words in an ancient book.
Or worse, your interpretation of those words.

Persecuting innocents for any reason is troublesome is it not?

If I am engaged in such action because of my interpretation of the words written in an ancient book, is it more troubling than if I am motivated by my interpretation of the words spoken by a living man or written in a modern book? What if my motivation is self-generated?

Asking unseen powers for special favors.

How does this lead to wrong actions? Is asking for special favors the problem or is it that the request is being made to unseen powers?

Relying on outside, supernatural forces for medical help, and refusing help that is available.

Here I can see a basis for believing this might lead to wrong actions, but I believe you are assuming that "available" help will always be more effective than "outside, supernatural" help, and you may be focused on help that can benefit the needs of a loved one rather than the individual.

If someone believes that ultimately they will be in a better situation if they rely on God rather than human medicine for their personal needs, how can this be considered a wrong action?

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@Mame,

Mame wrote:

From what I've seen among my theist friends,
they derive comfort from their faith . . .

Comfort, yeah, that comes up a lot.

Is there comfort in faith? Is there security in shared belief? Is there balm in
Gilead? I have at times found it, but here's my problem. I've already said that
I cannot prove the existence of God to anyone else. Well, I can't prove it to
myself either. There is always some level of doubt and uncertainty, to a greater
or lesser extent. And I don't think I'm the only believer who experiences this.
I wish I had the certainty of the True Believer -- or the Atheist.

I've asked a number of atheists whether they ever experienced any doubt, any
wavering in their conviction that there is no God. I even posed this question
in the "Atheism" thread. With one exception, every atheist was rock-solid.
The only exception was our own ehBeth. She said she sometimes wished that
she could believe.

It's a funny thing, this whisper of doubt. It comes and goes. Like the
princess in the fairy tale, no matter comfortable the mattress gets, I can
always feel that pea.

So yes, I haven taken solace in my faith, but I think the comfort factor is
overrated.

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@George,

Quote:

Like the princess in the fairy tale, no matter comfortable the mattress gets, I can always feel that pea.

So instead of stacking mattress upon mattress, simply cook the pea until it's soft.

1 Reply

Why believe in god? The theist perspective.

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