Why believe in god? The theist perspective.

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(Sorry, not a theist - hardcore atheist - but have some thoughts here based on my conversations with other people who believe in god. Back later.)

But is that not the form of service that is part of many religions? Don't many churches have kneeling benches, so people can get down on their knees? Don't some religions have their congregation on their knees with their heads on the floor?

This is the form of supplication that I find so aversive. It is the acknowledgment that the worshiper is somehow a lesser being than the entity they are beseeching. Psychologically, it is very powerful, and allows the churches to wield tremendous power over their congregation.

In the secular world, one sees something similar. For instance, a judge sits on a chair that is higher than the seats of the other people in the courtroom. The implication is clear. The judge is the BOSS.

Me too, but I don't love what came next.



Phoenix has explained her issues with religion -- and I think she means religion, not faith -- my primary issue is with folks who "give up" their blessings to a higher power. Rather than be embarrassed about one's riches and lift them up (rejoice in their gratitude to their god), why don't they share them with the less fortunate?

You can be grateful and also share.
Say, isn't tomorrow . . . ?

Well, grateful infers that one has been blessed in receiving one's riches. "There, but for the grace of God go I" doesn't have the same meaning to me as it does to a practicing theist. Neither do the words grateful or "giving thanks". They all have a religious background that I don't find necessary or necessarily positive.

I was more drawing attention to the 'embarrassment' aspect and justifying one's wealth or higher standing as a gift from above.

You've come to the right place.

Ah . . .
I'm with you on that one.

And, how can we ever expect to have inter-faith dialogue unless we open ourselves to understanding those similarities and differences in shades of gray rather than black and white?

Because it makes sense to me.

I presume this is why aetheists don't believe in God.

I don't have a problem with atheists or atheist threads unless they are focused on why people who believe in God are silly fools.

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Do you have a problem with threads which have discussed the evidence for the inverse relationship between "intelligence" and "belief" in all countries but the USA ?

I've never seen one.

But they exist..

Yet, you haven't seen god and you believe he /she exists..

Meaning what, Al?

Hehehehehehehe . . . are you suggesting he needs to get out more?

You do know, don't you, that such "providences" were cosidered by the Calvinists (i.e., the Puritans) of English society in the 17th century to be exactly that--signs of "god's" favor? Our society is in large measure based on the Puritan view of what Calvin and Hobbes had to teach them.

I'd rather follow that other Calvin & Hobbes.

I lean toward thinking those sort of survey results are tainted by so many things and I think it's a correlational relation not causal, for example

They usually show higher percentage of degree holders are atheist. But to get a degree you are less likely to be from a low socio-economic background. In most countries a religious upbringing is a cultural norm, particularly among the 'masses'. If the 'give me a child before he's eight and he'll be a christian forever' truism holds an LSES child is much less likely to be exposed to even the idea of questioning God intellectually.

Although I was raised LSES (in a wealthy society), the concept of religion was tangential at best to my upbringing. I think had I been raised religiously maybe a break from faith would have been harder.

I think being devoutly religious (as opposed to merely theist) might be a barrier to applying critical thinking to certain topics, but I don't think it affects your intelligence.

Yes, that's right.

Have you ever seen an electron?

I didn't say I didn't believe such posts exist because I'd never seen one.

This is a good example of why some people who believe in God have avoided this thread and others like it.

Do you really imagine that by pointing out to believers that they have never actually seen God that light bulbs will go on over their heads, clarity will replace the dull fog in their eyes and they will instantly join you in the ranks of the enlightened?

Are you interested in why thoughtful people believe in God or only in facile attempts to prove them foolish?

I understand why many people don't believe in God and it's not just because they've never seen him. Many have given it a lot of thought, many have jumped on what they see as an intellectual bandwagon, and many are denying their belief because they are disappointed that the world doesn't operate in the way they think it would if someone created it.

No matter what their reason, I fully acknowledge that I cannot prove them to be wrong.

I'm content with people believing what they will on this subject, but am amused by people who are infuriated by those who try to convince others of something they can't prove, and yet insist upon the same attempt.

There's really not much difference between a Believer accusing a Non-believer of being evil and a Non-believer accusing a Believer of being an idiot.

In my opinion, very few religious proselytizers really care about the souls of those they seek to convert. What they really want is to feel more knowledgeable and more righteous than others. Exactly the same is the case with most atheists who want to rid the world of superstitious religion...for the sake of humanity.

Re my earlier question, I refer to the 2007 thread

http://able2know.org/topic/90688-1

Well, I'm not sure I'm willing to join the 'argument'.

I'm not interested in changing anyone's beliefs, nor do I expect to.

Buddhists don't have missionaries. In fact, we generally practice the approach that someone must ask about our practice more than once. We are glad to share our 'beliefs' but not to evangelize.

To me, the question of a God is moot. I don't think I have anyway of knowing the answer and it doesn't matter. How should I live is the question. Buddhism gives me those answers.

If the real question is Why believe in God? - If it's out of fear, I think that is misplaced.