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Why believe in god? The theist perspective.

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Tue 23 Nov, 2010 11:48 pm
@IRFRANK,
I was wondering if any adherents of other religions would enter the discussion!
At last!
Ionus
 
  2  
Tue 23 Nov, 2010 11:51 pm
@hingehead,
I was raised by Franciscans and they told us quite categorically the Bible is not literally true in all instances. Some of it is history, some of it is discussion points, some of it is contradictory......only after the reformation was it ever considered the literal word of God.....before then the Catholics maintained power in the priests. They didnt want a group of back yard lawyers using the Bible for their own ends like you have in USA fundamentaism.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Tue 23 Nov, 2010 11:52 pm
@IRFRANK,
Quote:
But, I'm a Buddhist. I know nothing.
Are you currently serving as a priest and that is why you are bald ? Very Happy
Eorl
 
  1  
Tue 23 Nov, 2010 11:54 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Dead wrong as usual. An atheist is saying I believe in NO God's existence. A Theist is saying they believe in God's existence. An Agnostic is saying they have no believe in either direction. An Apatheist doesnt care which one is true (I made up that word Apatheist....me....I did it.....all by myself...no-one helped).


That's just your opinion. Good luck finding definitions that are conclusive. Yours leave gaps.

You could start here: http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/faq1111.htm
hingehead
 
  1  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 12:57 am
@Eorl,
Meme?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism
0 Replies
 
Below viewing threshold (view)
aidan
 
  2  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 03:16 am
@djjd62,
Quote:
Was (Not Was) rocks the house

Yeah - I love that guy's voice.
I found it- the Bruce reference - Roll of the Dice - he says - 'THIEF in the house of love - who can't be trusted'

Quote:
Maybe I'm just a clown throwin' down
Lookin' to come up busted
I'm a thief in the house of love
And I can't be trusted


I believe in god because I don't believe we're all just 'clowns throwin down lookin to come up busted...'

Is it all just a roll of the dice? I'm not convinced.
People like Bruce convince me it's probably otherwise.
Look how handsome he was!


Yeah people like Bruce Springsteen help convince me that god exists.
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 07:06 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Quote:
In prayer, one looks outside of oneself for solace, answers, etc.


Quote:
Actually no. In prayer one may be directing thoughts to "another" but I believe they are addressing the part of the mind that knows all, sees all, and if you cant keep it in check the result is autism.


I agree to an extent, but the problem is that those who pray are"giving the credit" to some outside force, rather that understanding that they are using their own minds to find answers. I think that that mindset is psychologically unhealthy.

By "looking within oneself" I don't mean that one never consults with people who may have greater knowledge or expertise in some particular thing. I think that what is important is the understanding that one has the ability to search for answers..................one cannot be an expert at everything.

To make a gross generality, if I needed surgery, I certainly would not operate on myself. I would though, do my research, learn as much as I can about my condition, the various options, and the surgery involved. I then would attempt to find a surgeon who has an exceptional track record in doing that particular procedure.

Ionus
 
  1  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 07:12 am
@Phoenix32890,
Quote:
the problem is that those who pray are"giving the credit" to some outside force, rather that understanding that they are using their own minds to find answers.
But my whole point is that the part of the mind whether it be a hemisphere or combinations of levels of brain development thinks and acts like it is seperate....alien hand syndrome, hypnotism, placebos, I believe all come from this part of the mind. It wants to be treated as seperate. When you assume you have control over it, it does damage like throw you off when you are balancing.

Quote:
I then would attempt to find a surgeon who has an exceptional track record in doing that particular procedure.
Doesnt that mean they are overdue for a failure ?
Wink
wayne
 
  2  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 07:25 am
@Ionus,
I think you're definition of the agnostic is a bit off. The agnostic is more of an I'll believe it when I see it type. It's not so much a matter of not believing either way as a reluctance to take the leap required to stand at either end of the spectrum.
Personally, I'm skeptical of anyone who says they know. My own experience has produced some indication of an encompassing force of life ( God for lack of a better term) but I've yet to see any evidence which might eliminate the need for a leap of faith.
I have noticed that the atheist seems to view non-belief as the starting point, of a sort, while the agnostic sees the center as the starting point. I think this accounts for setanta's view of atheism as no belief in god, rather than a belief in no god. If that makes any sense to ya.
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 07:25 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Doesnt that mean they are overdue for a failure ?


Quite possibly. I have written this before, but I don't think that you were on A2K when I did. I think that I became an adult when I understood these three things:

Mother Nature is capricious. Some things in life is "the luck of the draw".

Life is NOT fair, get over it.

There is no justice in the world. Sometimes good people get screwed, and nogoods get away with "murder".
George
 
  3  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 07:31 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
. . . That would be a point I'm not getting. The term "theology" is ancient
Greek and literally means "talk about god". If you are right and there is a god
to talk about, theology is a valid academic subject. But if you're wrong
and there isn't any, what's left for the field to talk about?

Sorry, Thomas. I strive for economy of expression, but sometimes fall
short of clarity.

The point would not be that there is a god to reason about, but rather
that in reasoning about the universe some have postulated a god and
and reasoned about that.

Come to think of it, that's pretty much what theology is now.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 07:34 am
@Phoenix32890,
Three sayings that could go a long way. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 07:35 am
@wayne,
Quote:
The agnostic is more of an I'll believe it when I see it type.
I take it that means a belief in God and a belief in no God will happen when they see it or do you mean one way only ?
Phoenix32890
 
  2  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 07:54 am
@wayne,
Quote:
The agnostic is more of an I'll believe it when I see it type.


You may be right, for some agnostics. In my case it is a matter of not being concerned as to whether there is a god or not. The concept has no meaning in my life. I, as an individual attempt to live my life the best way possible, constantly learning, and amending my concepts as new, more reasonable ideas emerge.

Oh, another thing which has absolutely nothing to do with the beginning of my post. One of the things that I find very aversive about the theist mindset is the concept of "worship". To me, worshiping is a demeaning, obnoxious way of
living ones life.

When I read of, or see pictures of people groveling, literally getting down on their knees to beseech the favor of some god or another, it reminds me of one thing. Every watch a dog attempting to get on the good side of its master? The dog's owner literally has the power of life, death and the happiness of the pet. The pet knows it, and behaves in a way that will gain its master's favor.
wayne
 
  1  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 08:08 am
@Ionus,
I see it as going either way, that you believe there is or believe there isn't.
It's probably just semantics. Maybe set is right and we begin with no belief and agnostics see some reason to consider believing if only something tangible would emerge.
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  3  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 08:14 am
@Phoenix32890,
I see what you are saying. I don't experience life that way myself though.
Do you never feel any connection to other beings on a level beyond the physical?

I don't care for the worship thing either, at least not on the terms you've pointed out.
Phoenix32890
 
  2  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 08:41 am
@wayne,
I have reached a point where I think that the human race might just not be at the top of the evolutionary tree. I have no proof of it, but it is an idea that I often muddle around in my head.

I have had a couple of experiences that some might call, "spiritual". The problem is, I think that we, as humans, are only beginning to scratch the surface in understanding life and the universe. Think of DNA. The understanding of DNA is a very recent development.

If I look back to when I was a kid, there is so much more that we know now, and the knowledge is increasing exponentially. Personally, if humanity does not blow itself to smithereens in the meantime, I think that 100 years from now, people will consider us rather primitive.
0 Replies
 
Oylok
 
  1  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 09:39 am
@Phoenix32890,
Phoenix32890 wrote:
One of the things that I find very aversive about the theist mindset is the concept of "worship". To me, worshiping is a demeaning, obnoxious way of living ones life. When I read of, or see pictures of people groveling, literally getting down on their knees to beseech the favor of some god or another, it reminds me of one thing. Every watch a dog attempting to get on the good side of its master? The dog's owner literally has the power of life, death and the happiness of the pet. The pet knows it, and behaves in a way that will gain its master's favor.


The version of "worship" you have described sounds very wretched. But what you have just described does not sound like worship at all. It sounds like something that a very cynical person would do to get ahead in life--just like a beta might within a wolf pack. Such a person grovels and flatters God while putting his or her own interests first the entire time. Is that worship, or is it hypocrisy? (And couldn't any omniscient God see that it was hypocrisy?)

In contrast, then, what is real worship? Well, as you said earlier, life is not fair. Sometimes it seems life is too kind, in fact. We watch the best people die, while we, the sortofgoods, end up comfortable and happy. We require someone to thank for our embarrassment of riches. Those who are able to believe can thank God.
George
 
  2  
Wed 24 Nov, 2010 09:42 am
@Oylok,
Oylok wrote:
. . . we, the sortofgoods . . .

I love that.
 

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