Discussion of 2010 Fiscal Commission Proposal to Reduce Debt / Deficit

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WASHINGTON — The United States must move to rein in its massive budget deficits or it faces the risk of a bond market crisis, former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said Sunday.

"We've got to resolve this issue before it gets forced upon us," Greenspan said of the ballooning U.S. debt levels.

JPB wrote:

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WASHINGTON — The United States must move to rein in its massive budget deficits or it faces the risk of a bond market crisis, former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said Sunday.

"We've got to resolve this issue before it gets forced upon us," Greenspan said of the ballooning U.S. debt levels.

In other words, it's going to be forced upon us, and when it is our public servants will ride the wave of panic to ram through their pet ideas....

I was commenting on how the American public has a mob mentality, not on how reliable Greenspan is.

But conservatives would denounce that as “rationing” even though it’s identical in its impact on patients.

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But conservatives would denounce that as “rationing” even though it’s identical in its impact on patients.

I have absolutely no problem with rationing or otherwise restricting publicly supported health services beyond a certain cap or care level.

Ryan’s vouchers are designed to increase in value at a much slower rate. So instead of paying for old people’s health care, which is expensive, Ryan proposed to just not pay for old people’s health care.

Paul Ryan's plan for Medicare is to destroy it. If his plan is put into place, it will cease to exist over time. This isn't an exaggeration, it's exactly how the plan is DESIGNED to work.

I cannot believe that you would support such a plan, JPB.

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Ryan’s vouchers are designed to increase in value at a much slower rate. So instead of paying for old people’s health care, which is expensive, Ryan proposed to just not pay for old people’s health care.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Paul Ryan's plan for Medicare is to destroy it. If his plan is put into place, it will cease to exist over time. This isn't an exaggeration, it's exactly how the plan is DESIGNED to work.

I cannot believe that you would support such a plan, JPB.

How does something that increases in value at a slower rate than the cost of healthcare (which also needs to be reduced over time) eventually disappear? It doesn't. It pays for less of what it pays for today but that, imo, is a necessary and desirable goal.

Increase cost-sharing in Medicare

Eliminate first-dollar coverage in Medigapplans.

Replace existing cost-sharing rules with universal deductible, single coinsurance rate, and catastrophic cap for Medicare Part A and Part B.

Medium Term: Fully offset the cost of the “Doc Fix” by asking doctors and other health providers, lawyers, and individuals to take responsibility for slowing health care cost growth. Offsets include:

*Pay doctors and other providers less, improve efficiency, and reward quality by speeding up payment reforms and increasing drug rebates

*Pay lawyers less and reduce the cost of defensive medicine by adopting comprehensive tort reform

*Expand cost-sharing in Medicare to promote informed consumer health choices and spending

*Expand successful cost containment demonstrations

*Strengthen IPAB

*Recommend additional health savings (illustrative examples to follow)

I like that goal. You don't. C'est la vie.

Call it "rationing" if you want, but it works for me.

You don't seem to think it's necessary to do any analysis to see whether or not this would actually save money, or even work. At all. You just think it sounds nice, so you support it. Same as with the other parts of Ryan's 'plan.' They sound nice, so you're for them.

You don't seem to realize that you are looking at a political and ideological document - not an actual plan. The proposals he makes don't work in the real world. But don't let little details like that stop you from promoting this idiocy

I sort of expected more in the way of analysis from you than this 'I like it, so there' approach. Disappointed.

Isn't this a fancy way of saying 'make seniors pay for more and more of their health care out of pocket, by covering less and less - so they'll stop asking for so much health care?' Good luck passing that one.

The whole point is that it doesn't work for Ryan's own party! They just spent two years running against government-run rationing of health care. They specifically promised to KEEP this out of the HC bill! Like I said before, I guess this stuff 'works for you,' but it doesn't reflect reality.

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The whole point is that it doesn't work for Ryan's own party! They just spent two years running against government-run rationing of health care. They specifically promised to KEEP this out of the HC bill! Like I said before, I guess this stuff 'works for you,' but it doesn't reflect reality.

I know. It doesn't stand a political snowball's chance in hell.

We won't save any money unless we solve the underlying problem. Shifting the costs does nothing.

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We won't save any money unless we solve the underlying problem. Shifting the costs does nothing.

Sure it does. It shifts the rationing decision away from the fed to the individual. If they want more coverage than the medicare cap then they can buy it. If they don't then they won't. It doesn't follow that everyone who can afford it will choose to spend their discretionary $$$ on additional health insurance, but at least it's their own decision. It also doesn't eliminate medicare - it simply sets a cap.

In addition to this, we should be focusing on things which actually cut the costs of HC itself...

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In addition to this, we should be focusing on things which actually cut the costs of HC itself...

There, that's better.

I suspect that the reason you are behind it isn't that you think it would be an improvement for seniors or even the country, but the misguided notion that it will save YOU money.

You're for cutting because you like the idea of cutting things,

not because you really care about the problems at hand.

At this point, unless you can put forth some actual analysis of the issue, I'll consider you to be in the same boat as the Magical goldbrick shitting pony people - someone with a desire but no real clue how to accomplish it, willing to back plans that will never work - economically or politically - in the name of ideology. I can't really say much to that, other than the fact that the future is going to be painful for you, because none of this will ever happen.