Teachers Unions - Outdated?

@georgeob1,

Quote:

Would you then consider a teacher whose students consistently get lower scores on assessment tests than other teachers around him/her as necessarily a good or better teacher that those whose students do better?

Yes, I would consider them good or better for ignoring the test.

I didn't say quit testing. There are all kinds of tests.

I don't think using your short term knowledge to pass a multiple choice test to be "demonstrating competence".

Getting a good score on the test will not guarantee you a job as a pilot or doctor. In fact, it won't guarantee you a job at all.

1 Reply

@Lash,

You'll never convince me that NCLB is a good idea.

If you have statistics that show a school has improved I say so what?

The test doesn't measure anything relevent so "improvement" doesn't mean anything either.

We've always had some really awsome teaching, it didn't have to be "allowed" by NCLB.

We keep throwing money at this idiotic stuff that could be better spent on awesomeness.

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@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

You'll never convince me that NCLB is a good idea.

If you have statistics that show a school has improved I say so what?

The test doesn't measure anything relevent so "improvement" doesn't mean anything either.

We've always had some really awsome teaching, it didn't have to be "allowed" by NCLB.

We keep throwing money at this idiotic stuff that could be better spent on awesomeness.

Evidently your opinions on the matter are fixed and no amount of logic or evidence will persuade you otherwise. Moreover, you apparently also believe that our public schools are doing an awesome job and don't need improvement.

Problem is most people don't agree with you on either point.

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@georgeob1,

I think our public school have gone down the toilet.

I blame standardized testing for taking up too much time and money.

Further, I'm unconvinced that there is not a racist/classist motive behind the testing.

I've not seen one study that shows a benefit to standarized testing. I'm not talking about a study showing scores are going up. (Didn't anyone here read Freakonomics?) I'm talking about a study that shows that this type of education benefits children. Show me a legitimate study proving your point and I'll read it and consider it.

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@georgeob1,

The problem is that too many people agree. That, or they believe the answer is more of the same and more money.

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@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

I think our public school have gone down the toilet.

I blame standardized testing for taking up too much time and money.

Further, I'm unconvinced that there is not a racist/classist motive behind the testing.

I've not seen one study that shows a benefit to standarized testing. I'm not talking about a study showing scores are going up. (Didn't anyone here read Freakonomics?) I'm talking about a study that shows that this type of education benefits children. Show me a legitimate study proving your point and I'll read it and consider it.

Standardized testing is a very recent phenomenon, while the accelerating failure of public schools - as measured by performance in subsequent grades, colleges, the need to "dumb down" course material, and standardizes tests themselves - has been going on for much longer. There is no cause effect relationship here.

What possible racist motive could there be in a standard test in proficiency in (say) mathematcs, arithmetic and basic algebra? What possible benefit could there be in hiding the knowledge of their deficiencies from children who, in their adult lives, will be the principal victims of the deficiencies in their education?

Education is the process of acquiring basic knowledge and the ability to learn on one's own. Its benefits, in terms of knowledge and skill can indeed be measured in tests. Moreover businesses, universities and government agencies use such tests to evaluate the skills of potential employees - and the correlation with subsequent on the job performance is generally very good.

What kind of "benefits to children" do you have in mind with respect to education? If it is something besides knowledge, basic skills in mathematics, reading, writing and elementary science and literature, please let us know what it might be.

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One of the school issues showing widespread improvement is the drop-out rate.
http://www.wcpss.net/evaluation-research/reports/2010/1003dropout08_09.pdf

This is one of the best pieces of news that disproportionately shows gains for minority students. Forming an active response to the drop-out problem is a major tenet of NCLB.

I'd like to give a bit of additional good news about innovation under the program. As thinking instructors find ways to incorporate standards, they are coming up with some incredibly smart helps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understanding_by_DesignThis is a fabulous, useful tool for imparting deeper thinking and keeping teachers on task - instead of creating "filler work" to keep kids busy.

There remain concerns that standardized testing reflects gaps among racially diverse students - not that it causes discrimination, but that it reflects generations of disparity in education, notably in black families. Hopefully, NCLB practiced efficiently by qualified teachers can over time, close those gaps. I mean, hell, that's why I became a teacher.

1 Reply

Officials were particularly encouraged by progress made in several of the state's largest and poorest cities, where school districts were singled out two years ago by state education officials for intervention.

Among those districts was Middletown, where schools saw large gains in test results this year among low-income and minority students, groups that traditionally have lagged far behind white and more affluent students.

No Child Left Behind is designed to address that achievement gap by requiring schools to assess progress among groups such as racial and ethnic minorities, low-income children, special education students and children who are learning to speak English.

http://ctmirror.com/story/7251/more-state-schools-meet-no-child-left-behind-standard
An excerpt and balance of article for anyone interested.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

There remain concerns that standardized testing reflects gaps among racially diverse students - not that it causes discrimination, but that it reflects generations of disparity in education, notably in black families. Hopefully, NCLB practiced efficiently by qualified teachers can over time, close those gaps. I mean, hell, that's why I became a teacher.

I can think of of no action better designed to perpetuate substandard performance by any group of people than to suppress the knowledge and feedback of their deficiencies to them. Every coach, teacher or manager of people at work knows this to be true.

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@boomerang,

Those tests reflect their possession of pertinent knowledge in the subject matter. BASIC knowledge. It is a good thing to know what they know. Differentiation of content, assessment and process can be used to interest the kids who are ready for more, while....wait for it....not leaving behind those who have cultural, experiential, emotional, or other barriers by pushing them forward into an advanced curriculum.

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By 'teaching to the test' I'm pretty sure Boomer means spending time going over what will be on the test so that the school / teachers/ admin doesn't get knuckle rapped.

Once NCLB passed, my own kids started spending a full 2 - 3 weeks reviewing what would be on the test so they could do well on the EOG (End of Grade) test. Doing well on this test gets the school a blue ribbon, the teacher a bonus, school admin a bonus and bragging rights, and keeps the school from being put in time out with their jobs at risk.

So, the first year it was in place, we had some schools that didn't make the grade.

What did we do?

We shuffled the student population around so that there weren't as many spec. ed kids, paid lunch kids, and so that there would be better "diversity" which translates to we needed to get more white kids into those schools to raise next years results.

Ah-Ha! That worked! And, THAT is what has guided our schools since then, with kids getting bussed from far reaches of the county and buses from 6-8 different schools going through the same neighborhood.

Does that mean the school is doing a better job of teaching and retaining students through 12th grade?

There is a huge disruption that has been brewing over the last few years where parents are sick of their kids being bussed all over tarnation. The Board of Ed. is split on the issue.

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@Lash,

This is the same kind of argument which has been used to prop up "IQ" testing over the years. What you call "basic knowledge" is actually knowledge of the white, Protestant, western European culture from which those who write such tests derive. A feeble argument can be made that this will help students "connect" with white, Protestant, western European (by descent) old boys club to whom they will apply for jobs.

Useful knowledge is knowing how things work, not regurgitating names and dates and descriptive words and phrases. Useful knowledge is the ability to identify fallacious arguments, not identifying the dominant points of view of the dominant culture. Useful knowledge is the ability to identify a valid premise, and to reason from the premise effectively, not coughing up the shibboleths of Thomas Hobbes and John Calvin.

There certainly is a need for arcane knowledge--but it is not the most useful part of education. Essentially, your view of education is to take the kids though the store so they can pick out what they are expected to buy, rather than teaching them now to make what they need. They need basic intellectual skills, not a copendium of white, Protestant, western European cultural prejudices.

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@squinney,

Our county recently went through what you are talking about, it made a lot of people frustrated, but what can they do but live with it?

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@revelette,

Vote.

We had a completely different BOE a couple of years ago, that was all about busing kids rather than making each school accountable no matter its population. We voted. We now have a BOE that is split, with a strong emphasis now being placed on neighborhood schools.

1 Reply

@squinney,

Voting is a good remedy, however, our rearranging of the schools have already happened two years ago, to change it now would be a lot more expensive than leaving like it is; I would think. Not to mention disrupting everything again for the kids. Luckily this only happened for the high schools, all the grade schools remained the same so the younger kids don't have to be in buses so long.

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@squinney,

squinney wrote:

What did we do?

We shuffled the student population around so that there weren't as many spec. ed kids, paid lunch kids, and so that there would be better "diversity" which translates to we needed to get more white kids into those schools to raise next years results.

Ah-Ha! That worked! And, THAT is what has guided our schools since then,

that pretty much covers the reading I've done on NCLB

throw more white kids who already live the white kid curriculum into each school

yeah that makes sense

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Teachers Unions are, I believe, the single most dangerous institution in this country. Teacher's unions care only about protecting teachers .. no matter how incompetent .. and padding teacher pay. The more teachers (the smaller the classroom) the more members and the more members the more dues and the more dues the more money to donate to Democrats and the more you donate to Democrats the more powerful you are. All of this done in the name of "educating" your child. The National Education Association in the most influential of these unions, and thus the most dangerous. They are also influential when it comes time to vote. They've got the purse strings and they aren't afraid to use it.

So where is the NEA spending its money when election time rolls around? On Democrats. Are you listening? Since 1990, the NEA has contributed $31 million to congressional races with 93% of that going to Democrats. I'm sure that the statistics are similar for teachers unions around the nation.

The quickest way to improve the quality of government education in this country is to make it illegal for government school teachers to engage in collective bargaining. Not gonna happen, but it's a thought.

By
Neal Boortz
@ August 3, 2010 8:32 AM

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@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

But the most rigid rules are not the ones in the union contracts. Their day is defined by what has to be covered so the kids will be ready for the next assesment test. There isn't time for "innovation".

And by his quotes it sounds like "innovation" is whatever he decides is "innovation". That bothers me.

It's like we were talking about on the other thread -- how are they defining a "good" teacher? It seems to me that it is currently defined as the teacher who gets her students to make high scores on assessment tests. In my opinion this is a "bad" teacher.

I'm not a huge union lover but I'm glad the teacher's union is fighting the waste of time that is NCLB and is helping what I consider good teachers keep their jobs.

You could be right about the contract (I haven't actually taken the time to read one), but if not to set teaching protocols, why is it 200 pages? Seems like overkill lol.

As for Dr. Canada's decisions for his schools, he is the administrator, so that doesn't bother me. I've posted about him before since I admire what he's been able to accomplish. I think if we were to dig deeper, we'd find he's not all that anti-union, nor out to bash them. He's all about finding what works and knowing not to continue policies that lead to failure.

He's the main reason I want to watch the documentary; I think he, along with a few other superstars in education are featured prominently. The fact that the Heritage Foundation likes it doesn't bother me. The guy who made it isn't part of that organization as far as I know. I'll try to watch without taking a political view or a pro/anti-union view (I'm agnostic except when it comes to certain parts...like tenure, which just seems ridiculous to me in its present form).

I understand your concerns, although I'm not as familiar as I should be with the bureaucracy that is NCLB. I'll bow out now lol.

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I suspect that the entire "No child left behind" scam was an effort to take the control of education out of local hands and to grab it for the (then conservative) government. Additionally, it provides a platform for this attack on teachers' unions and associations, a part of the conservative agenda since Reagan began the union busting with the air traffic controlers. There is a great irony here in that conservatives have long whined about unfunded iniatives, in which they allege the Federal government sticks them with the bills for programs which they did not initiate and of which they don't necessarily approve.

NCLB is the biggest unfunded initiative scam to ever come down the pike. Not only does this worthless rote memorization program use up all the attention and energies of teachers and administrators, it sucks up the budgets of local school boads which continue to primarily rely upon the local funds from property tax levies to fund their schools.

This is a typical conservative attack initiative, in which they betray their alleged opposition to big government. Puling hypocrites, every one of them . . .

1 Reply

@Setanta,

NODDING!!!

Uh-Huh. Yep.

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Teachers Unions - Outdated?

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