OMG. I'm starting to believe hawkeye

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

See if you can pick out who I thought of as brilliant. Oh, and Chucky's not in that photo upon studying.

The thing I like is that everyone is dressed for success... That is one thing that is missing to day.. There is too much concern for fashion and too much drama... And I was in a Catholic School too, and like my buddy says I got a good education and a bad attitude.... And we had a lot of tough kids, but if the nuns couldn't kick your but they called the priest, and if they couldn't kick you but they called the parents and all three had a go at you... They were all just like the penguin in the Blues Brothers...wack!

1 Reply

@Fido,

ossobuco wrote:

See if you can pick out who I thought of as brilliant. Oh, and Chucky's not in that photo upon studying.

Fido wrote:

The thing I like is that everyone is dressed for success... That is one thing that is missing to day.. There is too much concern for fashion and too much drama... And I was in a Catholic School too, and like my buddy says I got a good education and a bad attitude.... And we had a lot of tough kids, but if the nuns couldn't kick your but they called the priest, and if they couldn't kick you but they called the parents and all three had a go at you... They were all just like the penguin in the Blues Brothers...wack!

It sounds like u needed a lawyer.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

ossobuco wrote:

See if you can pick out who I thought of as brilliant. Oh, and Chucky's not in that photo upon studying.

Fido wrote:

The thing I like is that everyone is dressed for success... That is one thing that is missing to day.. There is too much concern for fashion and too much drama... And I was in a Catholic School too, and like my buddy says I got a good education and a bad attitude.... And we had a lot of tough kids, but if the nuns couldn't kick your but they called the priest, and if they couldn't kick you but they called the parents and all three had a go at you... They were all just like the penguin in the Blues Brothers...wack!

It sounds like u needed a lawyer.

David

For what??? Everyone I went to school with suffered the same system, and the same frustrated bags and most of us got a decent education in spit of it... And the best education of all was our bad attitudes which means that as adults we aren't going to put too much faith in the church or anyone else for that matter... I did not finish school at the convent... It only went to eighth grade... But the grade eight nun, the principal who scared us all as children, built like a fire plug, maybe 5' 4", and half as wide as she was tall suffered mercilessly at the hands of children who once beheld her authority wiith awe... Boys would haul it out in front of girls right in the middle of class caring not if they were caught wacking it, and tacks were put on her chair that she defened against with layers of undergarmets so that she carried and dropped tacks everywhere, until one of the boys brought hammer an nails to class and drove a spike right up through her chair bottom... She looked at that, and broke down in tears... I was long gone by then with bigger problems to deal with... I am glad I was not there to witness it.... It is best that some of our demons are never vanquished so that no matter where or when, they stir us with thoughts of vengeance...

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@hawkeye10,

Osso - that's a great picture! But did they have sixth and seventh graders in one class? That'd be a hard teaching job - differentiating the curriculum to that extent...and it doesn't look like there'd be enough space for all the kids standing to have a desk. Did the seventh graders just come and stand in for the picture, or was the classroom the size of a lecture hall?
I'm just trying to figure it out, as if there were fifty desks crammed in one room, and fifty kids milling around there'd not be a lot of room for hands-on and group activities.
We did a lot of that - especially in my sixth and seventh grade science, social studies and math classrooms.
I wouldn't have enjoyed school nearly as much if we hadn't.

This is my fifth grade class picture. This is my favorite teacher - Mr. Senick. He was a transplanted Brit.
28 kids /one teacher- I think the cut-off was 30 per class. This was during tracking.
The guy at the back left with the dark hair and goofy expression was presenting papers at Columbia when he was in tenth grade- he works in the aerospace industry.
The small Asian guy in the middle row next to the teacher was traveling to Rutgers for his math classes by eighth grade- I don't know what he's doing now - but his mom and dad couldn't speak English when they immigrated to the US. When I knew him - he'd just learned - he still spoke with a pronounced accent.
The girl with the short brown hair in the yellow dress in the middle row is a linguist. The girl on the right end of the front row in the red and white striped shirt is a toxicologist- so our education prepared most of us for something- (I'm the one in the corny red crochet vest (which was very fashionable at the time) with the short hair and wire-rimmed glasses in the middle of the front row - I became a teacher - just like Mr. Senick- he inspired me).

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k46/aidan_010/fifthgradeclass.jpg

Quote:

Today that grade level would be taught with about 24 at most, with an aid at least half the day, and if there are any mainstreamed special ed kids another aid just for that kid. And then the office staff would be called in sometimes too.

And after all that money spent the kids today probably still learn less than you did...

Yeah, because a lot of parents don't have the same standards of behavior and enforce the belief in education as an active paticipatory event instead of something that they are entitled to just receive - passively. It's almost like - 'Hey - I've shown up - that's my job done - now you do all the rest.'

And respect toward adults?! Especially toward these crummy public school teachers?! How're they going to learn that when all they hear is their parents' negative opinions?

I'm glad I went to school when I did and I'm glad my kids are almost done.

1 Reply

@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

To me it shows a lack of comprehension about what life is like for a kid with a disability.

Um... I was one! I got the supplements from both sides, myself. (Gifted stuff and special ed interventions.)

Meanwhile, I do know that deafness (while my parents probably would have happily chopped something off to give me my hearing back) is different from behavioral/ learning disabilities.

I'm surely not saying that the school experience is as hard for a gifted child as for a disabled one.

I stand by what I did say, which is: The regular baseline classroom curriculum serves a lot of kids, but there are some whom it doesn't serve adequately for whatever reason. (Not accessible, too difficult, too easy, whatever.) I don't think supplements to correct that inadequacy are inherently bad. (As I said a while ago, I'm sure it CAN be done badly.) In our case, thus far, they're definitely good. And from my talks with parents of special ed kids, that's working out, too. (Our district has more than the usual percentage of special ed kids because they're known for their services, and people move here just for that.)

1 Reply

@sozobe,

I know. And that's why I was so surprised to hear it from you.

I'm not anti-TAG. I'm sure if I really looked into it I could find several reasons to justify it. This isn't one of them. Here's one off the top of my head: Schools find that a lot of kids like this end up dropping out. Giving them a bit of a challenge keeps that from happening. (I don't know it that's true but it probably is.)

To me the SpEd/TAG trade off sounds like "your child gets fetal alcohol syndrome so mine should get a pony -- that way it's all even".

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@boomerang,

How is it a trade off?

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@boomerang,

For me, it's more about trying - and I emphasise the word 'trying' -to give everyone what they need. Of course, we all know that's not always possible.

My own bias, because of my family and educational background, tells me that it's most important to meet the needs of the special -ed students first. I say this as the sister of a brother with a cognitive disability - the mother of one child who was considered academically gifted -and the mother of another child with a sensory disability.

My view is that if the appropriate resources are there to cover the needs of students with cognitive/learning/behavioral (anything that impacts their ability to learn) and sensory and physical disabilities and there are resources left over - then it's reasonable to expect that students at the other end will have resources allocated to their 'special' learning needs or situations.

But I'd definitely put that on the back burner until the other needs are met first.

When did gifted/talented education even come into vogue? Did Bill Clinton have it -did Barack Obama have it? Did any of the people who succeeded in my class picture have it? No - and they got on. Most people who are gifted learners do - they tend to be self-directed and driven. And they tend to have parents who can direct and support them toward their goals.
So yeah - I do worry less about that population as a general rule.

But again - I admit I'm biased. I've never had any desire to teach kids who are gifted and talented. I like working with people from the other end of the learning spectrum.

1 Reply

@boomerang,

I think there's an issue if funds are used for TAG programs and are therefore not available for SpEd when additional SpEd services are needed. That isn't the case in our school districts. 1 out of 5 kids in our elementary schools have an IEP. I'm not sure the % of kids in TAG/AP, but it's probably similar. At the same time we have incredibly high taxes (voted on by referendum to support superior public schools) that support both programs.

If 1 out of 5 kids needed an IEP and only 1 out 6 or 7 got one because of limited funding then I'd agree -- services were begin provided to kids who didn't "need" them as much to the detriment of those who did. And, I can see how in some school districts that might be the case.

1 Reply

@JPB,

I was curious about that too, in a quick survey it looks like gifted programs are more vulnerable when only one of the two can be funded. NCLB has not been kind to gifted programs, for example. (The point is to get the scores up to speed -- doesn't matter if scores are better than necessary.)

For example:

Quote:

There are fewer classes for gifted elementary and middle school children today than there were a decade ago, said Jane Clarenbach, public relations director of the National Association for Gifted Children. In 1998, 25 states reported that 80 to 100 percent of their local school districts provided services to gifted students; last year, there were 22 states reporting that level of services.

Ms. Clarenbach said the federal No Child Left Behind law was "eroding support for gifted services." Passed in 2002, the law rates schools on how students perform on reading and math tests, pressuring districts to focus resources on students struggling to attain proficiency. Schools that score too low can be taken over.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/05/nyregion/05education.html

In general, I'd agree that special ed intervention is more important than gifted programs, IF the choice must be made.

I still don't get the pony thing though.

1 Reply

@aidan,

There were more rows of desks - if I remember right, the bunch of kids stood so the photographer could get everybody in the photo.
Sr. Mel was my favorite teacher - and yes, she switched back and forth teaching the sixth graders and then the seventh; the ones not being taught were doing busy work like math problems or reading.

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@sozobe,

Quote:

I was curious about that too, in a quick survey it looks like gifted programs are more vulnerable when only one of the two can be funded. NCLB has not been kind to gifted programs, for example.

Gifted programs are not only an expense that does not promote what the schools are being graded on, but they are also a pain in the rear, as nearly every parent of a mediocre student feels that their baby deserves to be in the program, and they get peeved when the experts disagree.

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a fellow student studying on the roof of the library, American University Beirut The Lebanon, circa 1950;

http://photobeirut.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341dfd6e53ef0105363ba45e970c-pi

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I was curious about that too, in a quick survey it looks like gifted programs are more vulnerable when only one of the two can be funded. NCLB has not been kind to gifted programs, for example.
Gifted programs are not only an expense that does not promote what the schools are being graded on, but they are also a pain in the rear, as nearly every parent of a mediocre student feels that their baby deserves to be in the program, and they get peeved when the experts disagree.

That's baloney! To me, as a parent, and to my daughter, as the student, it
gives us both an incentive to do better in school. Not only that, but it also
teaches us that there are limitations to what one is capable of. My daughter's
curriculum has some AP classes but not all of hers are. She's a freshman
in high school and never had biology before, but she is determined to work
herself into an advanced program for the upcoming years.

Were my daughter in special education classes, I would be determined to
give her the necessary resources I have, to advance her. Perhaps I would not
succeed in all classes but certainly in some and I would emphasize on them
to make her feel good academically and to get her ahead of schedule.

Letting an mediocre student be mediocre is not an option, at least not in my
book.

In Mo's case, things are different, as Mo has a learning disability and I am
almost certain that I would not leave my child in a public school if my kid
had a disability. Of course, depending on the school district, some public
schools have excellent programs for kids with learning disabilities, but most
public schools let them fall through the cracks. I would not waste my time
with working against the system - you can't! It's like driving against the traffic
in a one-way street. As I said before, Mo would thrive much better in a different school environment.

1 Reply

@CalamityJane,

Quote:

That's baloney! To me, as a parent, and to my daughter, as the student, it
gives us both an incentive to do better in school

you misunderstand.....my kids take AP classes, I am a strong supporter of providing as much challenge as the kids can handle and I dont have any problem with pulling some of the brighter kids out of the regular classes for extra work. I was explaining why in my opinion we dont see more support than we do for gifted programs.

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We went out of town for the morning. I didn't mean to open a can of worms and then bail out.

Actually, I didn't mean to open a can of worms at all.

I've never voiced any disapproval of TAG, only how it makes me feel very frustrated when people equate it with SpEd kids. I don't know enough about TAG to oppose it.

I do think it's very interesting that the Harvard study so closely mirrors whats been said on this thread. It really makes me want to read more.

Anyway...

Quote:

Most people who are gifted learners do - they tend to be self-directed and driven. And they tend to have parents who can direct and support them toward their goals.

quote]

Thanks, aiden. You expressed what I think too and you did it very well.

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@boomerang,

Quote:

Most people who are gifted learners do - they tend to be self-directed and driven. And they tend to have parents who can direct and support them toward their goals

Yep, and I cant prove it but my sense is that gifted kids almost always are highly curious, and they tend to be supported at home primarily by having a steady diet of strong vocabulary. One can not underestimate the importance of having a strong command of language in the process of feeding the intellect.

Reading to your kids at night works on both of these needs.

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@boomerang,

OK... do I get to be frustrated that you characterize what I said as "one of the absolutely saddest things I've ever heard anyone say" while you seem to be completely misreading what I actually said, though?

And I'd still like to know what the pony comment is about.

1 Reply

Meanwhile, re: the gifted stuff more generally:

I don't find the argument that gifted kids will be fine regardless to be a good argument against gifted programs. It reminds me of my friend Amy Rowley, who was the subject of a Supreme Court case in 1982 re: the need for special services in the classroom. She was Deaf, and needed ASL interpreters. The school refused to provide them. The SC agreed with the school, because Amy was doing fine. Sure, she could probably do better with interpreters, but the education she was receiving without them was good enough.

In the course of these conversations about education we've been having lately (and I think they're important conversations), it's been mentioned that America no longer stacks up as well against other countries. Isn't that another argument for gifted programs? Instead of just letting kids skate because they're doing well enough, really challenge them and get as many extraordinary thinkers out of American schools as possible?

In my turn to agree with Hawkeye Smile

, I think that if possible, we should challenge all kids.

DrewDad talked about how the fact that he skated through school had a real impact on him later on.

Again, I do think it's possible that these programs can and probably sometimes are done badly. But I also think they can be a really good thing.

2 Replies

@sozobe,

I said when I hear that argument what it sounds like to me is.....

That's what it sounds like people are saying: because your kid got something (bad), my kid should get something (good).

I'll guarantee you that I'm not the only person who hears that either.

I think TAG shouldn't use this argument in defense of their programs.

3 Replies

OMG. I'm starting to believe hawkeye

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