18
   

OMG. I'm starting to believe hawkeye

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 12:03 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I don't know how the situation could have been resolved. The decision in Brown versus Board of Education held that not only is "separate but equal" a sham, but that it is inherently unequal. That is why judges resorted to bussing plans, because residential demographics made for separate schools even if the district was acting in good faith. Bussing didn't work, though, and i personally have no suggestions as to what would work.


I always thought that if I were black the last thing I would want to do would be to put my kids' education at the mercy of white teachers who didn't want to teach them and who believed they were inherently inferior. Like you, though, I'm stuck with what else could have been done other than to enforce the "equal" part. Forcing them to fork out equal resources would probably have led to districts consolidating schools in order to save money where it was possible. But I wasn't there then and in general I think integrated schools, but more importantly integrated neighborhoods, are a good idea.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 12:05 pm
Part of the theory was, i think, that integrated schools would lead to integrated neighborhoods. But nobody how had to endure bussing seemed inclined to roll over and play nice.
0 Replies
 
55hikky
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 02:21 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:

Fact of life is, we spend 8 to 12 hours of our day doing something that earns us money so we have a place to live, and can raise our own families.

This is the type of vision that parents today have towards life and impose upon their children. I think it's time we made progress.
Quote:

A big part of preparing for that is going to school.

the issue raised now is that unlike 30 years ago, degrees no longer ensure jobs. Schools no longer guarantee "success". and children are now saying, "i thought school was a good thing." They only learned to memorize something new and forget them every 3-4 weeks. No practicality and pragmatics in the "skill" learned in school, which leaves children at awe.
Quote:

They're students, they're the future workforce, they're PEOPLE.
We are all, or have been, all of the above.

actually, people is the last thing most of us are, we are inclined to believe that we have to work, to need a car, to need internet and television and air conditioners, that there's just nothing we can do because that is just how it was when we got here and there's nothing i can do about it. Human beings are currently defined as "rational beings" and all most people do is blindly do what everyone else's doing, obsessing over cars, tv shows, business, decorating, sports, or anything that is devised to keep people busy with their life while making them believe as if they have "free will" and as if they are doing what they are doing out of choice. the public education system did a very good job in "educating" children for sure!

I'm not attacking you, I hope that was clear for I never referenced YOU or called you any profound names. I just used your quote to represent what many people today in first world countries are sort of "forced" to think, and I believe this is an insult to humanity.

-55hikky
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 02:48 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Hmm... In my view, students go to school in order to learn how to learn. They don't really leave school educated; they leave school educable.



Is it learning or regurgitating the specific facts and opinions heard in class, and read in assignments? It is just a socialization process. Less regimented than the military, but with the same goal, I believe. Teach us to take orders, so we can be useful to society.
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 03:10 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
OMG. I'm starting to believe hawkeye
Is that against the Terms of Service ??
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 03:13 pm
No, but it ought to be.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 08:43 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

Hmm... In my view, students go to school in order to learn how to learn. They don't really leave school educated; they leave school educable.



Is it learning or regurgitating the specific facts and opinions heard in class, and read in assignments? It is just a socialization process. Less regimented than the military, but with the same goal, I believe. Teach us to take orders, so we can be useful to society.

I don't mind being useful to society... I spent at least ten years being useful to my family out of 18, little more than a beast of burden... Then I spent 30 years supporting myself, which is another way of saying useful to some damned capitalist or another... Trust me on this: Being useful to society is a great relief, and not hard work by comparison... Use me... I am doing all this for you...

Drew Dad is wrong as well... Most of education is indoctrination.... And the proof of this is in how little success educators have with poor people and black people.. You cannot teach people that hard work is worthy if it is not worth a living wage... Success has to be seen to be believed, and where it is seen as the result of crime of one sort or another then that is the lesson that will be learned...
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 10:07 am
Judging by other comments that he's made I understand DrewDad to be saying this should be the purpose of school. I agree with him on that and I think that the last few posters who commented on his comment agree with that too. I welcome correction if I'm wrong.

I'm not sure that I can agree that school is indoctination. Maybe in behavior (sit quietly do what we tell you like a good employee), but not in thought. I had an interesting conversation last year with a teacher who lamented the loss of having the kids bring in clippings from the paper to discuss current events. They simply didn't have time for it in the era of test-prep curriculum. It's hard to indoctrinate kids when they don't study what is happening in the world.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 10:23 am
@55hikky,
Quote:
I think it's time we made progress
.

I agree. But we could also regress because it didn't use to be like this.

I remember being told that we were the future LEADERS of this country, now they're told that they're the future WORK FORCE. That's no way to inspire a kid!

Quote:
...what many people today in first world countries are sort of "forced" to think, and I believe this is an insult to humanity.


While I agree that there is a large flock of sheepeople out there I don't think we can lay this problem on schools. There is an emphasis on community service as a graduation requirement in many districts now -- that didn't exist when I was in school. I've seen reports of high school kids coming up with effective, low cost, programs to help people. That's very cool.

I worry that for most kids such things are just another goal driven (graduation being the goal) hurdle to overcome but for some kids that lesson sticks and those kids might make a big difference in the future.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 10:27 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Okay. You made me laugh!

But it's not exactly like you're an uncontroversial figure around here either. I mean, if I can like a gun loving, hedonistic attorney I can like anybody, right?
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 10:39 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

I'm not sure that I can agree that school is indoctination. Maybe in behavior (sit quietly do what we tell you like a good employee), but not in thought. I had an interesting conversation last year with a teacher who lamented the loss of having the kids bring in clippings from the paper to discuss current events. They simply didn't have time for it in the era of test-prep curriculum. It's hard to indoctrinate kids when they don't study what is happening in the world.

I'm sorry, which claim are you alluding to in your claim, "I understand DrewDad to be saying' this' "?
Also, isn't the definition of "indoctrination" similar to "brainwash," which was how I understood it. Well, if this is the definition you pertained to, when you said the kids "don't study what is happening in the world" ...aren't they being brainwashed? (in multiple ways in fact?)
1. Because they are not "taught" about current issues and events, they are susceptible to messages, advertisement, media, products that speak to the subconscious and deprived of instruction and guidance to identify the form of infestation by the aristocracy ("those with money") and to actively acknowledge this being done to them and so must prevent this. This is the most ubiquitous form of indoctrination (by society, not school, but if school does not pursue to correct this, they are just as responsible in the act and result)
2. I haven't read the previous posts,but I feel as if school is an indoctrination in the sense that the telos of public education system is to "teach skill to work" and because of the way the government (and naturally the society as well) facilitates this to such extent that school now has some celestial title that going to school is a virtuous thing, a right thing, "the-good-thing-every-good-person-must-do thing," and we expect it to do so much more than what it is capable of, such as teach values, teach life skills, multicultural exposure, "success." Well, sadly it can't do any of that though, but the notion by the people that it can, prevents them from looking outside of school for education. In this sense I believe that the society has sort of made public education system into a brainwash institute, if it wasn't before. (what i mean is; it can only do so much, and it was only meant to do so much, so when we expect it to do a lot of things, and it fails to deliver those requests, it seems as if they are picking and choosing what to teach. But actually, they are not picking and choosing from a myriad of topics, they are just teaching what they were meant to teach; which is work skills.) I guess this goes into the question of did the school make the people to believe this way first, or was the human mind so frivolous that it had to throw all of its responsibility on alien entity that forced this phenomenon?

-55hikky
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 12:54 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

Foofie wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

Hmm... In my view, students go to school in order to learn how to learn. They don't really leave school educated; they leave school educable.



Is it learning or regurgitating the specific facts and opinions heard in class, and read in assignments? It is just a socialization process. Less regimented than the military, but with the same goal, I believe. Teach us to take orders, so we can be useful to society.

I don't mind being useful to society... I spent at least ten years being useful to my family out of 18, little more than a beast of burden... Then I spent 30 years supporting myself, which is another way of saying useful to some damned capitalist or another... Trust me on this: Being useful to society is a great relief, and not hard work by comparison... Use me... I am doing all this for you...

Drew Dad is wrong as well... Most of education is indoctrination.... And the proof of this is in how little success educators have with poor people and black people.. You cannot teach people that hard work is worthy if it is not worth a living wage... Success has to be seen to be believed, and where it is seen as the result of crime of one sort or another then that is the lesson that will be learned...


I also believe that by willingly being useful, one is also not an ingrate to a society that one belongs to.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 01:01 pm
@Fido,
Like most things in life, education is a mixed bag. Some classes are just regurgitation, while some teach you how to think.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 01:09 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Okay. You made me laugh!

But it's not exactly like you're an uncontroversial figure around here either.
I mean, if I can like a gun loving, hedonistic attorney I can like anybody, right?
Sounds good; so stipulated.





David
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 02:20 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Fido wrote:

Foofie wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

Hmm... In my view, students go to school in order to learn how to learn. They don't really leave school educated; they leave school educable.



Is it learning or regurgitating the specific facts and opinions heard in class, and read in assignments? It is just a socialization process. Less regimented than the military, but with the same goal, I believe. Teach us to take orders, so we can be useful to society.

I don't mind being useful to society... I spent at least ten years being useful to my family out of 18, little more than a beast of burden... Then I spent 30 years supporting myself, which is another way of saying useful to some damned capitalist or another... Trust me on this: Being useful to society is a great relief, and not hard work by comparison... Use me... I am doing all this for you...

Drew Dad is wrong as well... Most of education is indoctrination.... And the proof of this is in how little success educators have with poor people and black people.. You cannot teach people that hard work is worthy if it is not worth a living wage... Success has to be seen to be believed, and where it is seen as the result of crime of one sort or another then that is the lesson that will be learned...


I also believe that by willingly being useful, one is also not an ingrate to a society that one belongs to.

How do you define society??? There are some people in society I would not define as social, or in my society; and I am certain there are many who would not consider me a part of their society... Where community may be considered as just the people, society could be the people plus the culture... What shall we say society is if the culture permits the exploitation, even exploitation to death of others in the same community, and what sort of community would not defend its own from such abuse...

Part of the problem with education is this country is that it is so calculating... One must not consider the value of an education to the person who receives it, which may add immensly to happiness.... Rather, society must calculate what they are going to get from the investment, and like all such claculations of a public benefit, such as from resocurces, it is the rich who are allowed to price everything to their benefit.... We do not look at educated people and see that such people will not suffer illness, or be imprisoned at near the rate of uneducated people... We ask only: How much wealth will they create in their life times to make profit beyond every measure of investment...

The child must invest himself in education... The college kid must go deep into debt for education as though an education is an asset only to that person with the education... It is a self fulfilling attitude, because people who alone sacrifice for knowledge are not inclined to serve anyone else with it, and they too look at all poor and uneducated as prey...

The common wealth has a claim on the education, and what is made out of it, just as they have a claim on all our bodies... They should make education available, and affordable, and expect a public good from all private knowledge and activity... Now, society believes without any evidence that private property, private gain, and private profit will result in a public good... Where is it... Where is the public good in everyone looking out for themselves, not having the defense of their community, not having the obligation to defend their community from exploitation and abuse???
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 02:29 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Like most things in life, education is a mixed bag. Some classes are just regurgitation, while some teach you how to think.

My experience with history, and government, and economics was of idealization to the point of fabrication... No one could seriously compare the high school version of reality with reality in any objective fashion without being offended by the abuse of truth as a quasi concept...A country cannot let its church people write its text books and expect reality represented... The state is supposed to keep out of religion, but that does not mean religion has to stay clear of politics... They have an agenda, and it has nothing what ever to do with an educated population... For example, no one with a firm grasp of history could ever say America can do no wrong, but I have had many text books that said just that, that everything is for the best in this best of all worlds because we are Christian, and God has given us our perfect constitution... What was not gloss, was spin...
boomerang
 
  3  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 02:41 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
that everything is for the best in this best of all worlds


Dr. Pangloss!

(Sorry, I couldn't help myself.)

I agree that political and religious views of school boards influence what the kids are taught. Scary stuff.

However, I don't think it's just current textbooks that whitewash and over-simplify history. That's always been a problem.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 02:51 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
However, I don't think it's just current textbooks that whitewash and over-simplify history. That's always been a problem.
That is a different problem then is the current practice of skewing the history that is taught so that it will conform to the moral agenda attempting to be transmitted to the young in schools. Moral indoctrination has been allowed to trump truth, which is a very bad lesson to teach our youth. We have taught that fantasy trumps reality, and to the extent that the youth accept this lesson we as a society will be worse for it. It is as if we are committing suicide as a collective. We are not a rapidly declining superpower through chance, we were always going to decline at some point but we have aided and abetted our own demise.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 04:35 pm
@Fido,
So, because your educational experience was all regurgitation, then all education is regurgitation?

Certainly, your education did not teach you to think.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Oct, 2010 05:52 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
However, I don't think it's just current textbooks that whitewash and over-simplify history. That's always been a problem.


Napoleon is responsible for most of the better known bullshit claims about history, which is ironic, given that history was his best (and reportedly his favorite) subject at Brienne when he was preparing for l'École militaire.

The most well-known is that history is written by the victors. There are several obvious objections to this--for example, we wouldn't know about any atrocities if the "truth" were only told by the victors. That being said, it is important to understand how big an influence the victors can have. Most Americans are probably unaware that there were incidents of American troops shooting German prisoners in both the First and Second World War. But, by and large, the farther you get in time from an event, the weaker the influence of the version of history which was promoted by the powers that were. And great events or personalities can completely overcome this. Napoleon is a prime example of this. The English of the late 18th and early 19th centuries viewed Napoleon with as much, and possibly even more horror and loathing as their descendants would in regard to Hitler. Yet Napoleon retains a glamor of glory about him--this despite the fact that the English were the victors, not the French. His reputation is so good that the style of warfare the French used is known as Napoleonic, even though he didn't invent it, and it was all in place the first time he took command of an army in 1796. His own people, though, weren't so gullible as we are today. Napoleon issued bulletins after every battle, and there is now a commonplace saying in French about someone thought to be a chronic liar: ". . . lies like a bulletin."

He also said that history is a set of lies agreed upon. To a certain extent this is true, and nowhere more so than in schools. And it's odd what kind of lies get perpetrated. Robert E. Lee fought for the bad guys, but he nevertheless has a reputation as one of America's greatest soldiers. If you examine his record in command of Confederate armies, it's really rather poor--he didn't do basic staff work, cared little for getting and providing accurate maps, and was profligate of the lives of his soldiers, which actually tended to shorten the war and make the defeat of the South inevitable. But Southerners loved him for being audacious and aggressive, and the halo-polishing machine which went to work on him after he died in 1870 has succeeded in making him into "a great American hero."

Mostly, though, the bowdlerization of history is rather mundane. The history of the United States is largely "New England-centric," meaning it is told from the point of view of New England Protestants. The Pilgrim Fathers were not the first English settlers in North America, not by a long shot. They weren't even the first settlers in the Massachusetts Bay area. But people aren't good with dates, and the New England Protestants have done a good job with the propaganda. How often do American school children, for example, say to themselves, "Hmm . . . Jamestown 1607, Plymouth Rock, 1620--Virginia must have been settled first!" I suspect almost never, especially given how kids hate to memorize dates. (Of course, the first English settlement in North America was Roanoke Island in 1584, and the first European settlement in North America north of Mexico was at Hilton Head, by the French, in 1562.)

History in schools deserves to wear Napoleon's label--a set of lies agreed upon. In a very real way, that boy knew history inside and out, and knew what he was talking about--well, most of the time.
 

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