18
   

OMG. I'm starting to believe hawkeye

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 02:42 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
A close look at what really goes on in schools and classrooms reveals that instead of an atmosphere of high expectations and conviction that all students can and should achieve, many of our schools perpetuate deeply rooted cultural beliefs that actually create barriers to student access to and success in postsecondary education
I think the worst bias, one that was a problem back even when I was in school, is the bias towards the suppliant. Kissing the teachers ass was almost always good for a half a letter grade improvement in score, or more. Teachers feel big and important and wise when they think that they are transferring their belief system on to their students, and the students act like they buy it. Teachers by and large don't consider their main job to train the brains to learn (the job of education) but rather they think their job is indoctrination.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 02:58 pm
@engineer,
Back to point two, that the purpose of placement, "gifted" programs and advanced placement courses (AP) are to move resources from the average student to the privledged one.

The author makes this statement as a given
Quote:
Granted, it is hard to deny the superiority of the instruction in gifted-and-talented programs and some other honors or high-track classes, what with hands-on learning, student-designed projects, computers, field trips, and other enrichments.

I deny the superiority of the instruction in those programs. Wow, that wasn't all that hard. I can do that because 1) there isn't any "hands on learning", 2) there are not additional student-designed projects, 3) there are no additional computers, field trips or other enrichments. Of course, this article is over a decade old and my experience is only with what I see in schools today and in the 70's, but it seems like the author thinks that honors classes and gifted curriculums are all milk and honey, but what they actually are is work. Six outside book reports per quarter instead of one or two in middle school. Covering two years worth of math in one year so that the student can take geometry in eighth grade instead of algebra I. My experience watching my son in AP classes is that he gets an extra three hours of homework per week over the two or three expected in a standard class for each AP class. These courses are available to everyone, but unless you are angling for college credit, who is going to sign up for them?
Quote:
So if parents of those students were concerned about the quality of learning, they would have no reason to object to extending those benefits to everyone.

Nope, no objections at all. The idea that the parents of stronger students are looking at the way average classes are conducted and demanding that students in those classes be taught ineffectively is very strange.
Quote:
This posture, she adds, goes beyond a simple and commendable desire to do everything possible for one's own children. "When parents tell me they're terribly anxious about their kids getting ahead, I'm sympathetic. Everyone wants the best for their kids. But when it extends to sabotaging programs that are designed to help people, I have to draw the line."
Notice what is going on here. It isn't just that these parents are ignoring everyone else's children, focusing their efforts solely on giving their own children the most desirable education. Rather, they are in effect sacrificing other children to their own. It's not about success but victory, not about responding to a competitive environment but creating one. As Harvey Daniels of National Louis University sees it, "The psychology of those parents is that it's not enough for their kids to win: others must lose -- and they must lose conspicuously."

Exactly how do those parents do that? I have enough trouble finding out how teaching is done in my children's classes, how on Earth can I deviously sabotage other classrooms to make other children fail? Once again, I am limited in my exposure, but I can't see how even the most well connected parent goes about harming other students and how that benefits his own. Maybe I could take the best teachers: oops, teachers are selected to teach courses for a variety of reasons, but none have to do with teaching skill. Just like in college where professors are chosen more for how much they bring in in research dollars without regard to teaching ability, teachers in public schools get courses based on seniority, who is out on medical leave and who has the right certifications. While I think most teachers are pretty decent, I've seen examples of uncommitted or ineffective teachers at all levels. The article notes "AP classes at the high school level are usually difficult but often poorly taught." Doesn't that imply that parents are not using their clout to steal the best teachers? New teachers with all the latest training in the newest equipment and techniques are not typically assigned honors or AP courses. I don't see how these courses drain critical resources from other classes.
Quote:
The second article, published in the Harvard Educational Review, contains a very serious charge leveled by Wells and her colleague Irene Serna: tracking, advanced placement (AP) courses, and gifted programs do not provide differential instruction for legitimate pedagogical reasons -- or allow for a system based on merit -- so much as they represent a naked grab for artificially scarce benefits by those who have the power to get them.[9]
Think scientifically for a moment about how this disturbing hypothesis might be tested. If it were accurate, the beneficiaries of these educational advantages would "be more concerned about the labels placed on their children than about what actually goes on in the classroom."

Well, no. (I can't see how the last statement "scientifically" follows from the hypothesis at all.) If that hypothesis were accurate then the more scarce resources are, the more you would expect AP courses to be demanded by those with the power to influence the decision. In cases where there is an abundance of resources, you would have no driving force for AP classes (if the purpose was to grab scarce resources), so we should expect less in the way of AP classes. I can only discuss this area, but the big private school in the area that charges $10+k/year tuition seems to have tons of AP courses. The article itself says
Quote:
just as the fact that a disproportionate number of truly progressive schools are private doesn't mean that a disproportionate number of private schools are progressive. The parents who prefer worksheets and lectures can use their clout to reverse or forestall a move to more learner-centered classrooms.

OK, so if the goal is to take resources from the less well off, why would these tactics continue in private schools where everyone is well off? Not saying that worksheet driven education is superior, but the theory of this paper is that parents are pursuing these actions not because they believe (right or wrong) that it produces better education for all children, but because they believe that it will specifically benefit their child without regard for (or at the expense of) other children.

In summary, I think "scientifically" looking at the argument shoots if full of holes. The article quotes this opinion (like it quotes lots of opinions):
Quote:
Beyond attitudes toward children and community, there is the question of how we view education itself. In a new book titled How to Succeed in School Without Really Learning, David Labaree of Michigan State University argues that schooling these days is not seen as a way to create democratic citizens or even capable workers, but serves more as a credentialing mechanism. "The purpose of education from this angle is not what it can do for democracy or the economy but what it can do for me," and this shift turns our school systems into "a vast public subsidy for private ambition." One implication of such a transformation is that education becomes "an arena for zero-sum competition filled with self-interested actors seeking opportunities for gaining educational distinctions at the expense of each other" -- precisely what we've seen affluent parents doing so relentlessly and so well...

The point is not to get an education but to get ahead -- and therefore, from the student/consumer's point of view, "to gain the highest grade with the minimum amount of learning."

Actually the goal is to get ahead by getting an education. Those honor students can easily get A's without all the hard work. Really, they can. I think we want to push them to achieve just as we want to push every student to achieve.
Quote:
For starters, it must be conceded that some parents are genuinely worried about the extent to which their children are learning, or would be learning, in a heterogeneous classroom. They are afraid that the curriculum might be "dumbed down," resulting in boredom and lack of appropriate challenge for their own children. In some places, there is legitimate reason for concern, but as a rule too much attention is paid to the difficulty level of what is being taught, the simplistic assumption being that harder is better. To judge what goes on in a classroom on the basis of how difficult the tasks are is rather like judging an opera on the basis of how many notes it contains that are challenging for the singers to hit.

Harder might not always be better, but appropriately hard is something we should strive for and I think my school system does that without diverting resources away from the average student. (I think the football team does a lot more of that for far smaller impact, but that is another thread). I'll switch from opera to music since I know nothing about singing. If you teach every violin player to play the basics, but don't ever challenge your best violinists to reach higher, you are set for your basic weddings and art openings, but you will never hear Paganini. (For those of you who made it this far, I am amazed and thankful for your attention.)
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 03:19 pm
@engineer,
Did you read the Harvard Review study? It gets pretty specific on how parents make grabs for resources.

And someone earlier mentioned pitching in for some kid's field trip when the family couldn't afford it -- maybe this kind of thing only happens in the lower grades.

I've never been involved in TAG and I probably never will so I just don't know.

Sure not all private schools are progressive, most aren't. Look at all the Catholic schools, they can hardly be called progressive. If a parent belives that worksheets and lectures are the right way to educate they can find a school that does precisely that. They don't have to make a grab for resources because they can enroll their kid in the kind of school that will provide the kind of education they want their kid to have. Easy.

And it is a topic for another thread but I think it should be noted that football teams usually bring in more money than is spent on them. Parents usually pay out of pocket (sometime large amounts) when their kid is on the team.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 03:55 pm

If I had a child, I 'd have to consider inviting him
to attend a libertarian Summerhill school (if thay r still around).





David
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 04:09 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I'd love to send Mo to private school.

The one I think would be the best match for him cost $16,000 a year. We're hoping that we can send him there for middle school so we're saving for that now.

There are cheaper private school but they're run by churches and I don't want to send him to a school affiliated with a church.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 04:17 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Quote:
For most subjects people do not need a class because the information can be reached, but those who need a grade need a class... Why not make it easier to take classes and waive out??? I've done it... But most would have to be going to university for even the opportunity to waive a class...


"CLEPing out" was very popular when I was in college. Kids can still do it and it doesn't cost much at all: http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/exams.html

Not all schools will accept CLEP scores but I think they should.

I only did one year at MSU, and my last class brought me below a 3 point... I waved humanities, and If I had bought the grades at the now ridiculous 14 dollars a credit, all 3.5s, I could have kept my average above 3... University is nice, but almost too slow a process since I can read for an understanding of just about everything... Plus, I am terribly slow on the uptake of verbal communication... It hurt me in highschool and before... Mostly I read for education...
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 04:35 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

I'd love to send Mo to private school.

The one I think would be the best match for him cost $16,000 a year. We're hoping that we can send him there for middle school so we're saving for that now.

There are cheaper private school but they're run by churches and I don't want to send him to a school affiliated with a church.


I'm a Christian, and I felt the same way, boomer. We chose an independent private school for middle & high school. It's the only non-religious private school in town. But it certainly wasn't the only school we considered.

I'm Protestant, but once I looked at a number of private schools, I disliked the evangelical Christian schools more than the Catholic ones. The Catholic schools pushed religion less. Their student bodies were more than 50% non-Catholic, so they tried not to offend anyone.

Once you start looking closely, you'll find that some church-supported private schools aren't actually very religious at all. Don't count them all out until you've taken a good look at them. Here are a few key questions. Do they have required chapel services? Do they ask faith questions on their application? Do they require religion classes? Also, talk to a few parents who have children there.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 05:01 pm
@Eva,
The Franciscians run a great school here that I waver back and forth on (it's the only fully accredited montessori school in America) but the other church run schools just seem very rigid. I don't think that environment would make for success for Mo.

Edit: I think that it cost about $12,000 a year which is not a big savings from the school I'd really like to send him to, though.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 05:04 pm
I don't know if it is still true, but at one time, black families in Chicago which felt sufficiently affluent would send their children to Catholic schools, believing them to be much superior to the public system. They didn't worry about the religious aspect and the brothers and sisters of the various orders scrupulously avoided anything which could have been construed as attempting to convert the Baptists or AMEC students.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 05:09 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

I'd love to send Mo to private school.

The one I think would be the best match for him cost $16,000 a year. We're hoping that we can send him there for middle school so we're saving for that now.


I hope so too, for Mo's sake. You also can get government help
for Mo, boomer, as he's considered a "special needs child" you have adopted.
A neighbor of mine receives government assistance for her son. She adopted him as a baby before she knew that he was deaf. He goes to a school for deaf children, he works with a speech pathologists and a therapist - all paid for by the state. We're not close enough friends for me to ask her, how much financial assistance she receives, but she did tell me that she receives financial aid.

http://dhsforms.hr.state.or.us/Forms/Served/DE9050.pdf

engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 07:41 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Did you read the Harvard Review study? It gets pretty specific on how parents make grabs for resources.

No and I want to. I didn't see a link before; did you find it? If not, I can search it out. There are a lot of school systems besides mine, so I don't know how typical my experience is.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 08:44 pm
@CalamityJane,
We aren't eligible for those funds because we never turned Mo over to social services after his parents abandoned him. I talked to them once and they said we could keep him or turn him over and so we kept him.

I'm riding the school hard this year to get things straightened out because there really isn't a better place for him that I can afford right now.

I could send him to the neighborhood Catholic school but I think that would be a catastrophy.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 08:45 pm
@engineer,
Gosh. It was pages and pages ago and I searched for a while to come up with an available version that people didn't have to pay for. Let me see if I can dig it out of this thread......
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 08:48 pm
Here it is...

http://ed-share.educ.msu.edu/scan/TE/danagnos/te9203C.PDF
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 09:19 pm
@boomerang,
Yeah, I attended Junior High during forced busing, here in Austin.

Certainly, the vast majority of the kids in the honors classes were white, while the majority of kids in the school were black.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 07:18 am
@DrewDad,
I guess I understand why the felt forced to bus kids. It didn't solve anything though. Schools should have tried what mine did -- make a great school and invite everyone from the city to join. They offered a lot of classes but none of them were "honors".
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 07:21 am
The "they" who mandated forced bussing were Federal judges.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 07:43 am
@Setanta,
I know. I understand why they did it. Integration is a good idea. Forcing people to do something usually backfires. As DrewDad pointed out, forced busing often led to segregation between the "smart" (white) kids and the "dumb" (black) kids.

I think a lot of that still goes on today.

Actually, I think it's getting worse.

Schools in poor areas already have few resources; when they don't make "expected progress" (or whatever the correct-speak is (it's early, I'm stupid early)) they lose even more resources. So they just get taught the test. So they're all miserable. So they all drop out. So the school gets closed down. So the kids that are left get shipped off to other schools where they're labeled lazy and unmotivated.

The whole thing stinks to high heavens.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 08:02 am
I don't know how the situation could have been resolved. The decision in Brown versus Board of Education held that not only is "separate but equal" a sham, but that it is inherently unequal. That is why judges resorted to bussing plans, because residential demographics made for separate schools even if the district was acting in good faith. Bussing didn't work, though, and i personally have no suggestions as to what would work.
blueveinedthrobber
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2010 08:15 am
Since the entire master plan of the handful of people who actually run our country is to have a few very rich people being maintained by a huge class of poor people doing work which requires marginal education I would say that the educational system is moving along right according to plan, more's the pity. This is all just a spoke in the wheel of eliminating the middle class because there soon will no longer be a need for them.
0 Replies
 
 

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