18
   

OMG. I'm starting to believe hawkeye

 
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 08:44 am
@sozobe,
Quote:
One thing I erased from an earlier post because it was getting too long is that one of my reasons for supporting gifted programs is because NOT all of the kids in it have parents who can provide the kind of additional support that I could if it was needed. (With an English major/ M.Ed mom and a Ph.D in science dad, we can cover most things. Plus as a stay-at-home mom I'd have time to do it.)

Both when I was a kid and now, several of the gifted kids came from families who could not provide that kind of home-based education.


I have a bit of a problem with this... I think a child who needs this kind of support probably shouldn't be in a gifted program. M was marginally eligible for the TAG program here. She had the brains but not the ambition to do the work. She was evaluated every year and every year she honestly answered the questions at the interview that she really wasn't interested in doing the extra work. She aced her way through the regular curriculum so, eventually, her 5th grade teacher finally just put her in the TAG program for 6th grade. She connected emotionally with the kids in those classes much more than the regular classes -- they were deep thinkers, like her -- but she was completely stressed out about the workload. Mr B and I could both help her in different areas, and we did, but we decided that she was better suited to the regular classroom.

Our neighbor, OTOH, has a child who is best suited for a regular classroom but they insist that she be put in TAG classes. They get her tutors and work with her every night to make sure she makes the grades, but the kid is an emotional mess.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 08:45 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I think that this long of a record of refusing to fix a problem must have to do with at least some people refusing to help fix it because the broken education system works for them


According to the Harvard study the people with the "economic/political/cultural capital" don't want things to change. I read one article that started out with something like "It's no secret that TAG/AP sprung up to replace tracking..." Maybe I'll search it out again and post it.

I think it's just too big to change quickly.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 08:52 am
@aidan,
I'm really happy to see more and more schools NOT require SAT scores.

Personally I never thought they mattered all that much to colleges. I think a few test prep business realized there was a lot of money to be made so they convinced people that their kid's entire future rested on the results of this test.

I pay a tutor $30 a hour just to help Mo keep up. I know I'm really lucky to be able to do that.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 08:52 am
@JPB,
Oh, that's not what I was saying though. That post was sparked by the assumption that kids in gifted programs are at the top of the totem pole, but is also is in reference to the stuff ehBeth just referred to -- that gifted kids will be fine regardless, and they probably have parents who can offer extra stuff at home to make up for any shortfalls at school.

That's what I meant by "support." If sozlet's bored at school, I can go ahead and do extra stuff at home -- I've got English and social studies and stuff pretty well covered, and have a K-12 education background in terms of pedagogy. E.G. is a scientist.

So sozlet doesn't "need" gifted programs the way some other kids do. However, she really loves it, and I'm happy it's an option. I'm also happy that it's available to the kids whose families can't do the kind of extras we can, for whatever reason.

If it's stressful to the kid, that's something else. Sounds like you made a good decision re: M.
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 09:21 am
@sozobe,
Yeah, I know. I've seen both sides of the parental "ability/availability" and parental push. I think TAG/AP classes are great for some kids, but I think all too often it's the parents who push kids into them when they shouldn't be there.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 09:51 am
@JPB,
Quote:
I think a child who needs this kind of support probably shouldn't be in a gifted program.


This is pretty much what my argument was on the homework thread: that if a kid needs a parent or tutor to explain the homework then the homework is inappropriate.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 09:52 am
@boomerang,
I'd agree with that, btw.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 09:56 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
This is pretty much what my argument was on the homework thread: that if a kid needs a parent or tutor to explain the homework then the homework is inappropriate.


While i agree with that--homework should be drill in what you've just learned, or something to send you to the textbook for material which has just been reviewed--many of the obvious homework questions we get here make me wonder if the students simply aren't paying attention, and have no intention of paying attention.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 10:12 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Quote:
I think a child who needs this kind of support probably shouldn't be in a gifted program.


This is pretty much what my argument was on the homework thread: that if a kid needs a parent or tutor to explain the homework then the homework is inappropriate.


or the child is just not in the right class

the homework could be appropriate for the majority of the class, and not be right for some of the students (for a range of reasons)

~~~~~~~

Generally, I don't think lowering expectations for a class/grade/culture as a whole is a good idea. I'd like to see general expectations raised - with a hopeful result that people/society realize that it just isn't reasonable or necessary or useful for more people to attend university. Perhaps college is more appropriate, perhaps apprenticeships, perhaps going straight out to work.

I'll babble on about my dislike for the whole SAT/GRE world of businesses another day.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 10:20 am
@Setanta,
That's a great observation!

It would be easier to google an answer than to sign up and ask it here. You've really got to wonder about those kids.

I could argue for days that our current educational system is designed to crush the curiosity out of most students and that they're only rewarded on the right answer, but the fact is, some of them are just lazy.

I remember in school that I would sometimes get the "wrong" answer (not the exact answer the teacher was looking for) by going off on some tangent. Some of my teachers seemed to like this "wrongness" and once in a while they'd slip me a book they thought I'd find interesting. Usually they were dead right -- I'd find the book interesting and I'd go on to read even more about it.

I wonder if that kind of stuff still happens today for the average student.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 10:22 am
I read a great quote a while back about actually holding a book in your hands--wish i had it here right now. I wonder if very many kids actually read books any longer, outside of school.
boomerang
 
  3  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 10:26 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
or the child is just not in the right class

the homework could be appropriate for the majority of the class, and not be right for some of the students (for a range of reasons)


Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.

At our meeting last week I pulled two homework assignments out and asked if this information had been covered in class.

One had (a little, the teacher admitted) but it was done in the mornings when Mo was off at his SpEd class.

The other hadn't been covered at all, it had not even been explained.

I asked if any child would be able to complete the assignment based on the instructions give, without the help of a parent.

The principal, the teacher and the SpEd teacher all agreed that they wouldn't be able to.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 10:30 am
@Setanta,
The other day farmerman relayed this same question to the forum after his friend, a college professor, asked it.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 11:50 am
I went all the way through that Only for MY Kid article and while I think there are a few interesting points in it, I thought in general, it was a poorly written rant disguished as a scholarly report.

First, one thing that I thought was interesting and of value:
Quote:
Honors classes are dominated by whites, regular classes by blacks."[6] In response, a liberal New Republic columnist readily agreed that the honors program in his own daughter's school in Montgomery County, Maryland, amounted to "a school within a school" for the white and Asian students -- and then announced that if this program were eliminated, he would pull his daughter out of that school "in a nanosecond."[

I've seen this directly at one of the local high schools and thought it was unusual, but in this context it makes perfect sense. The main down-town high school here was heavily impacted by desegregation in the 70's. They lost many students to a private high school started specifically to resist integration. In the 90's they responded by creating the Lyceum program, essentially a school within a school where they can group all the best students who then receive special integrated instruction of just the type the author would approve of for everyone. I think this program pretty much fits the bill of what the author is trying in terms of diverting resources to the best students to prevent white flight from the school. None of the other area high schools do this.

On the down side, this article ranges all over they place, conflating all the battlelines in education together even if they are not related to the hypothesis proposed, that parents are actively promoting the taking of resources from the have nots for the benefits of the haves.

Quote:
The controversies in which these parents involve themselves fall into three clusters, the first of which concerns the type of instruction that is offered. ...
Second, there is the question of placement, or which students get what. This category includes debates over such issues as tracking, ability grouping, gifted-and-talented programs, and honors courses...
Finally, there are the practices that take place after the instruction, in which the emphasis is on selecting and sorting students so only a few are recognized: awards, letter grades, weighted grades (which give an additional advantage to those in the selective courses), honor rolls, and class rank...

It is the difference between a bumper sticker that says, "My Child Is an Honor Student at . . ." (with the understood postscript: "And Yours Isn't") ...

These are radically different issues and many of them have no impact on how resources are allocated. The author sites a group in Palo Alto, California, "where a similarly elite constituency demands a return to a "skill and drill" math curriculum and fiercely opposes the more conceptual learning outlined in the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM) standards." I support "skill and drill" for all levels of math students because it produces results. If you want someone to learn to read, you encourage them to read all the time, have their parents read to them and assign reading every night. If you want someone to master the violin, you expect them to devote time to practice every day, but somehow if you want someone to learn math, all you need is to understand the concept. I hate seeing students struggle through Algebra because they stumble over the basic multiplication and division. On the third point, I find the argument lacking as well. We had a thread on honor roles before so I won't rehash it, but this is essentially the opposite of the pony argument from a few posts ago: if you post your student's good performance on the wall, I want mine to get a pony! Who looks at a bumper sticker saying my child is an honor student and thinks "you're dissing my child because he's not" (other than the author of this article)? We report prep sports scores and there you have clear winners and losers, but heaven forbid we praise a student that excels acedemically. Just to be clear on my position on this particular issue, I do not support nor have I ever seen letter grades in elementary school, but I think they are fine for high schools. Even if you feel otherwise, I can't see how having letter grades changes the allocation of resources outside of the remaining point.

That leaves point two which is the only one pertinent to the argument of the article:

Quote:
... there is the question of placement, or which students get what. This category includes debates over such issues as tracking, ability grouping, gifted-and-talented programs, and honors courses...

I need to get some work done, so I will return to this in another post. (Plus it takes a while to get all my quotes in order and this post is already too long.)
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 11:54 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Quote:

the homework could be appropriate


Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.


could means yes?
could means no?

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 12:23 pm
@Setanta,
boomerang wrote:
This is pretty much what my argument was on the homework thread: that if a kid needs a parent or tutor to explain the homework then the homework is inappropriate.
Setanta wrote:
While i agree with that--homework should be drill in what you've just learned, or something to send you to the textbook for material which has just been reviewed--many of the obvious homework questions we get here make me wonder if the students simply aren't paying attention, and have no intention of paying attention.
Some of them might have short attention spans.

In my early childhood, I felt not quite, but almost,
like a kidnap victim in school (questioning its jurisdiction),
but I paid attention anyway.





David
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 12:54 pm
@engineer,
If making good classes available to all students, instead of to a select few, sends people racing out the door I say good riddence to them. I really wouldn't want my kids to go to school with people like that.

I'm a white girl who rode the bus for 30 minutes every morning to the voluntarily integrated "black" school where an exceptional education was available to ALL students. White people were beating down the door to get their kids in that school. You had to interview to get in if you didn't live in the district (ie: weren't black).

So I'm not buying "white flight" as a good reason to secretly segregate schools.


I too believe in "skill and drill" for math and have said so often on this forum.

I support letter grades as well. They essentially still give them but they're cloaked in symbols rather than letters. It's stupid. But I would much rather see portfolio review and have conversations about progress than have any kind of grading system.

The Lyceum program sounds very much like the Vanguard program my nephew was put in -- the program that so throughly disgusted my sister that she pulled him out of school altogether instead of buying in to their institutionalized racism.

Sports are a game so of course there are clear winners and losers Academics aren't -- grades can be pretty arbitrary from teacher to teacher and from school to school.

Edit: what she (my sister) saw as institutionalized racism.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 01:42 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

If making good classes available to all students, instead of to a select few, sends people racing out the door I say good riddence to them. I really wouldn't want my kids to go to school with people like that.
...
The Lyceum program sounds very much like the Vanguard program my nephew was put in -- the program that so throughly disgusted my sister that she pulled him out of school altogether instead of buying in to their institutionalized racism.

Yes, I was agreeing with the writer of the article about that and how her article pointed clarified what already struck me as wrong about that program.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 02:11 pm
@engineer,
I know. We really pretty much agree on all of it.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2010 02:19 pm
I hope you all understand that I'm not calling you racist/classist if you or your kids are in TAG/AP. I'm not. I've talked with most of you for enough years that I would have figured it out if you were. That's one of the things that makes this debate so interesting and I thank you all for that.

However, I'm not convinced that the genesis of the programs is not racially motivated or that there might very well be racism behind who gets picked for the TAG/AP track.

Here's an interesting article on the effect of teacher bias:

http://www.prel.org/products/pn_/cultural-belief.htm

Quote:
A close look at what really goes on in schools and classrooms reveals that instead of an atmosphere of high expectations and conviction that all students can and should achieve, many of our schools perpetuate deeply rooted cultural beliefs that actually create barriers to student access to and success in postsecondary education.

The belief systems that emanate from our culture shape the way we think, live, act, and interact with each other and with those outside our culture. Our expectations and cultural belief systems reflect our values and perspectives and at the same time can close our minds to accepting other ways of thinking and doing (McQuillan, 1998). Although the United States is called the great melting pot and the land of opportunity – a place where all citizens have an opportunity to succeed – the predominant culture is grounded in and shaped by white, middle-class values and expectations. Those who do not succeed (by white, middle-class standards) have not worked hard enough to overcome whatever barriers they have encountered. In other words, underserved students who do not go on to postsecondary education have only themselves to blame. But what obligation, if any, do our schools have to ensure all students have the same opportunities and help compensate for those who walk through the doors at great disadvantage, whether economically, socially, physically, or culturally?
 

Related Topics

Kid wouldn't fight, died of injuries - Discussion by gungasnake
Public school zero tolerance policies. - Question by boomerang
Dismantling the DC voucher program - Discussion by gungasnake
Adventures in Special Education - Discussion by littlek
home schooling - Discussion by dancerdoll
Can I get into an Ivy League? - Question by the-lazy-snail
Let's start an education forum - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Educational resources on the cheap - Discussion by gungasnake
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/15/2025 at 11:01:08