8
   

The importance of sports in children's lives

 
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 10:50 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Oops! This post of yours was meant to be answered by none other than fbaezer, not me. My mistake. Silly me. Laughing
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 11:19 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:
Oops! This post of yours was meant to be answered by none other than fbaezer, not me. My mistake. Silly me. Laughing
No, not at all, Bill.

Our social paradime here is that anyone is expected to freely comment on anything.

We r big on the First Amendment.
I 'm always glad to know your thoughts.
(I have not read them, yet.)





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 12:29 am
@wmwcjr,
David wrote:
I 'd like to know where in the hell government acquired jurisdiction to MANDATE P.E. !!????
When and how was this acquired???

It is only a USURPATION.




wmwcjr wrote:
I don't know. I confess to being ignorant about the Constitution.
The concept came from John Locke, as set forth in his
2nd Treatise on Civil Government.
It is that human existence antedated n preceded the existence of government,
the latter being a human invention. Government was created from the imagination of its Founders
(the same as imagining lines of latitude n longitude, which exist only because we SAY that thay do).
It was brought into (pretended) existence by their power to cede some of their autonomy and personal freedom,
out of which government jurisdiction is made.
(Personal liberty and the domestic jurisdiction of government are INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL.)

Before government existed, it had no jurisdiction, whatsoever.

When it was brought into (pretended) existence,
it was invested ONLY with the jurisdiction that the Founders,
its Creators, had decided to cede to it; any (fake) authority, beyond that,
that was exercised by the employees of "government"
was STOLEN, fraudulent, and NON-existent.

There never came a time
that the Creators of government got together and said:
"Hay, let 's give our baby, government, the power to coerce
and extort us into going to schools and being forced to take P.E.
against the citizens' will, whether thay like it or not."




wmwcjr wrote:
What really galled me about the traditional "sports only" approach to mandatory P.E. was the claim the policymakers made that they were so concerned about some kids not being physically fit, yet the P.E. classes offered no exercise programs and didn't even provide any instruction about the sports themselves.
BEFORE we arrive at that point,
there is a logically earlier question of where or how government
got any authority to extort anyone into attending P.E.



wmwcjr wrote:
That's teaching? Of course, the real goal of P.E. was to have a winning high-school football or basketball team.
I believe u.




wmwcjr wrote:
I just thought of an idea.
Why don't they give tax breaks to the parents of nonathletic kids so they can send them to health clubs?
Yeah; at the same time that I refused to run around in circles, or chase balls,
I attended a private gym to study n practice hand-to-hand combat
and for muscular development.






David wrote:
He shoud simply have REFUSED TO CO-OPERATE.
That 's what I did, when I was 8.

I was cajoled, by some adult who was loitering around, against
my better judgment, to join in a baseball game of my class.
I had very recently arrived in Arizona.
I knew nothing of baseball; no idea of the rules. (I still don 't & coud not possiblly care less than I do.)
I made mistakes, giving rise to great fury and very obscene vilification from some of my classmates,
until I began to pound upon their faces, in response. (Thay fled. The other team was in hysterical laffter.)

After that, I refused any further athletic participation.
That was the end of that.

wmwcjr wrote:
That must have been absolutely hilarious to see. I can just see it now. Laughing
The other team was almost falling down, laffing,
as their opponents fled and scattered in many directions
when someone began pounding upon the faces of their fellows,
who reclined in supine positions. (Thay also stopped hurling obscenities against the pounder.)
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Dec, 2010 10:32 pm
I have several questions for fbaezer: Why do you condone the bullying of students in the schools they have to attend in order to get an education; and why do you insist that all boys participate in sports, regardless of whether or not they're even interested in them? And why don't you believe in freedom of choice? Don't you have a "live and let live" attitude? It sure sounds like you don't.
fbaezer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 08:37 pm
@wmwcjr,
I don't condone bullying. Never did, never will.
I only acknowledge that some sports coaches do. They shouldn't, but they do.
The kid who was harassed on Jr. High was not bullyed because he was bad at sports (other kids fared worse), but the coach permitted other kids to jeer at him (and that's the sort of bullying I witnessed). I don't condone him, all I said is that compulsory sports may imply some bullying. It's a drawback, not a neutral characteristic.

As for compulsory sports up to high school, I mantain my opinion. I think they are good for kids, as they should be in touch with their bodies, and learn how to use them, have fun with them. I think this will lead them to healthier lives.

I don't think this has to do with freedom of choice, only that I value physical education just a tad below math or history.
To me, your question sounds as almost as: "why do you insist that all boys participate in math (chemistry, history, latin) class, regardless of whether or not they're even interested in them?".

And perhaps I don't have a "live & let live" attitude on minors. Adults may do as they wish.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 04:06 am
@fbaezer,
fbaezer wrote:
And perhaps I don't have a "live & let live" attitude on minors. Adults may do as they wish.
Justice woud be served if thay coud turn it around and PUT YOU into that position, in return.





David
wmwcjr
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 12:01 pm
@fbaezer,
I appreciate that you have responded in a civil manner without resorting to personal insult, which is the ingrained habit of certain longtime members of this forum. I would ask those individuals the following question: In real life (as you are online), are you in the habit of walking up to a complete stranger and insulting him just because he has a point of view that’s different from your own? Such a childish attitude doesn’t seek to understand why individual people happen to believe the way they do.

I’m wondering, though, if you’ve read all of my comments in this post. IMHO, I’ve actually presented a rather moderate approach to the issue of phys ed. In fact, I stand by every word I’ve said because I know that I’m right. If you haven’t already read them, please read them carefully. I shouldn’t have to repeat myself in the same thread when I’ve already stated my position.

I did not say that phys ed should not be mandatory. I strongly support P.E. programs that actually encourage non-athletic students to become physically active and achieve physical fitness. A member of another website’s forum described an excellent P.E. program at her daughter’s local high school. I’ve gone to the trouble of copying her comments so I don’t have to include the entire webpage, which has more than 20 other posts that are not relevant to the issue that we’re discussing in this topic of our own. Her comments are as follows: “Our high school offers a personal fitness class that is an option to traditional gym class[my italics]. The activities are non-competitive and students monitor their own progress. They run, walk, do yoga, kick boxing, weight training. The students are allowed to listen to their MP3 players when they are running or walking and many of the other activities are done to music.” This is the sort of P.E. that I strongly support. Mandatory P.E. that offers this approach for non-athletic students, as opposed to compulsory sports, is the sort of mandatory P.E. that I can in good conscience support. Did you read the article on the excellent PE4Life program which I posted a link? If you haven’t, please read it.

I know what I’m talking about because in my life I’ve been on both sides of the divide. When I started my 4th-grade year of schooling, the unsupervised recess (which I had had no problem with) was replaced with a form of P.E. -- the difference being that there was no gym, but it was compulsory sports nevertheless. Fortunately, since I was a band student in high school, I was not required to take P.E. -- which is quite fortunate, as I heard that the mandatory P.E. at my high school was even more hellish for non-athletic boys that the P.E. I took in junior high.

What I’ve not forgotten to this day is that the attitude that the P.E. teachers and coaches towards the non-athletic boys in my P.E. classes was one of either indifference or outright contempt. There was not a single exception among them. I learned to fear and resent them, as well as the more athletic classmates who shared their attitudes. And as I’ve said before, the non-athletic boys actually got very little exercise. I remember the school authorities saying that the purpose of mandatory P.E. was to promote physical fitness. It was nothing but a hypocritical lie. There was not even any mention of exercise programs or bodybuilding. Why should I have to repeat myself in a thread of this sort?

You say that you favor compulsory sports (instead of genuine fitness classes) because kids should be in touch with their bodies and have fun with them. Compulsory sports only allows athletes to get in touch with their bodies and teaches non-athletes to be ashamed of theirs. Do you think non-athletic boys have fun when they have to put up with neanderthals posing to be teachers, men who look down on them simply because they’re not physically strong? Do you think non-athletic boys have fun when they are humiliated and bullied? Do you think my British friend had fun when that athletic classmate of his deliberately smashed his face with a cricket bat and broke his nose? Yeah, that’s really fun.

I said that I’ve been working with a personal trainer on a bodybuilding program. I love my workout sessions! All the personal trainers at my health club have heard how hard I work in my workouts. I love the change that I’m experiencing in my body. I love the feel of physical strength that I never had when I was younger. Are you saying that I’m not in touch with my body? I most certainly am in touch with my body. I’m possibly in better shape than you. And I’m doing it without sports. So, if I can do it as a middle-aged man, bodybuilding should be offered to non-athletic boys instead of having sports crammed down their throats.

I’m not denigrating your love of sports, but you must recognize that there are boys (and men) who have absolutely no interest in them. We may not be a majority, but there are more of us than you think.

The mandatory “sports only” P.E. was a hypocritical disgrace, the bane of existence for non-athletic students. The hypocrisy was truly amazing. Just to give an example, in one of my P.E. classes, I had to participate in a game of basketball (never mind that I didn’t even know how the game was played). You see, the assumption seems to have been made by the bright souls who set up mandatory P.E. that every boy is an athlete and already knows how all the games are played. Of course, my participation in this game turned out to be a joke.

Many years later when I was working with my first personal trainer (before he quit to go to law school), he would vary the workout routine by exposing me to a sport or two. One day he showed me how to properly shoot a basketball. I had assumed that shooting a basketball was simply thrusting the basketball towards the hoop. I was astonished to learn that shooting a basketball properly involved particular wrist and finger movements; in other words, a learned skill, a skill that is developed through repetitive practice until it can be done without having to think about it. I guess it’s like learning how to type. I’m indebted to my personal trainer for showing me that I was not a deficient person because I didn’t know how to shoot a basketball. He showed me that it was a skill that I could master with practice. Guess what. This instruction was never provided in any of the “sports only” P.E. classes that I and all of the other non-athletic guys I knew were forced to take. As I said, there never was any education in “phys ed”!

When I commented about freedom of choice, I was referring to the undeniable fact that different students (and adults, for that matter) have different physical fitness needs. Let’s suppose that there’s a scrawny teenage boy who wants to build up his physique, and there’s an obese boy who needs to slim down. (Incidentally, the sort of exercise that an obese kid needs is constant movement. What sort of exercise is an obese boy going to receive by sitting on a bench or standing out in a baseball field?) Obviously, the two boys are not going to be placed on the same sort of exercise program because their goals are different. Anyone who denies this fact is being willfully ignorant. This is what I meant. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I favor programs that actually help those students who are the most physically unfit. You support the same old approach that subjects non-athletic boys to humiliation and bullying. Whoever came up with compulsory sports must have really hated non-athletic boys. (Well, after all, they’re regarded to be wimps and “sissies.” Well, I must keep up to date. The word that is today used to label non-athletic boys is “fags.”) Not only are they humiliated and frequently bullied in such classes, but they are discouraged from ever becoming physically active. If you took the time to do some research on this issue, you would see that this is, in fact, true.

You say that you don’t have a “live and let live” attitude to minors, but that adults may do what they wish. I’m glad that I have your permission. Rolling Eyes
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 12:06 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Thanks for coming to my defense, David. You're a real gentleman. Most of the liberal members may not think so, but you're one of the nicest guys in this forum.

Politics has nothing to do with being a gentleman, folks.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 01:47 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:
I appreciate that you have responded in a civil manner without resorting to personal insult,
She personally insulted the "minors" whose minds she publicly views with contempt.

On behalf of her victims, I vicariously take offense.





David
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 02:55 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
*wmwcjr applauds, and his wife agrees*
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 04:18 pm
@wmwcjr,
Thank u both.





David
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 11:03 am
Here’s a good example (just one of many) of the sort of “fun” that non-athletic boys “enjoy” in traditional mandatory P.E. classes that really are nothing more than compulsory sports (instead of genuine fitness classes). I’ve posted a link to a lengthy online article about the effects of bullying, and have followed the link with an excerpt from the article.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/11/28/a_world_of_misery_left_by_bullying

Quote:
Of all the searing memories that stalk Testaverde, one comes back to him most vividly. It is a recollection of gym class at Gloucester High School, where changing in the locker room alongside his bullies felt like “being in an enclosed space with a wild animal.’’

That day, his attackers were bolder, going at him on the gym floor. As they did, Testaverde recalls, he had looked up to see the gym teacher watching, shaking his head in disgust.

“That was the hardest thing — seeing someone who had the responsibility to deal with it, who wasn’t, because he thought I wasn’t being a man or something,’’ he says. “It felt horrible, and it felt like something I had to live with . . . I felt like I probably deserved it, because if it was wrong, somebody would be doing something about it.’’

He says he asked a guidance counselor to change his schedule, so he wouldn’t have to take gym with the bullies, but he was told the change was impossible. His mother went to the school and was told the abuse wouldn’t happen again, but it did.


Ah, who cares? Bullying is just part of life.

Wow. That coach was a "real man," a perfect example of athletics building character.

wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 11:22 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You're welcome. Smile
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 01:53 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:

Here’s a good example (just one of many) of the sort of “fun” that non-athletic boys “enjoy” in traditional mandatory P.E. classes that really are nothing more than compulsory sports (instead of genuine fitness classes). I’ve posted a link to a lengthy online article about the effects of bullying, and have followed the link with an excerpt from the article.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/11/28/a_world_of_misery_left_by_bullying

Quote:
Of all the searing memories that stalk Testaverde, one comes back to him most vividly. It is a recollection of gym class at Gloucester High School, where changing in the locker room alongside his bullies felt like “being in an enclosed space with a wild animal.’’

That day, his attackers were bolder, going at him on the gym floor. As they did, Testaverde recalls, he had looked up to see the gym teacher watching, shaking his head in disgust.

“That was the hardest thing — seeing someone who had the responsibility to deal with it, who wasn’t, because he thought I wasn’t being a man or something,’’ he says. “It felt horrible, and it felt like something I had to live with . . . I felt like I probably deserved it, because if it was wrong, somebody would be doing something about it.’’
[ How about a LAWYER, and the police ??, if a crime was committed ]

He says he asked a guidance counselor to change his schedule, so he wouldn’t have to take gym with the bullies, but he was told the change was impossible. His mother went to the school and was told the abuse wouldn’t happen again, but it did.


Ah, who cares? Bullying is just part of life.

Wow. That coach was a "real man," a perfect example of athletics building character.
Lodge a complaint with the issuing authority
of the coach 's license to teach,
and against the principal for negligence and professional incompetence.
That 's what LAWYERS r for.

Sue the school/city
.

2, 4, 6, 8!
We r gonna LITIGATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa!!
!



OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 02:33 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
Quote:
The importance of sports in children's lives
How about the importance of sports in children's DEATHS ??
For instance, a boy in the news of late,
who got killed by getting hit in the chest with a ball,
even while wearing body armor.

His estate shoud sue the armorer (and the guy who hit him).





David
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 04:02 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Smile Ah, David, you take the words out of my mouth. All I can say is this: What were that poor guy's parents doing? That coach should have been FIRED. And how often do all those who extol the virtues of sport or, I should say, sports culture (supreme over virtually everything else) ever object to bullying of this sort? Do sportswriters ever talk about it? The answer is obvious.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 06:27 pm
@fbaezer,
Quote:
I don't condone bullying. Never did, never will.
You've just contradicted yourself. I seriously doubt that bullying bothers you much, if at all.
Quote:
I only acknowledge that some sports coaches do. They shouldn't, but they do.
Your moral indignation is underwhelming.
Quote:
all I said is that compulsory sports may imply some bullying. It's a drawback, not a neutral characteristic.
I don't believe that throwing a ball is inherently good or bad. But I do believe that there is a culture associated with (but not inherently a part of) certain school sports that denigrates nonathletic boys. A boy who throws a baseball poorly is said to "throw like a girl" (supposedly feminine but actually not feminine = bad). Nonathletic boys who have no interest in sports frequently are bullied. There are even some psychologists who will claim that any boy who has no interest in sports should be suspected of having homosexual tendencies. I know what I'm talking about from my own personal experience.
Quote:
As for compulsory sports up to high school, I mantain my opinion.
Just like anuses, everyone has one.
Quote:
I think they are good for kids, as they should be in touch with their bodies, and learn how to use them, have fun with them. I think this will lead them to healthier lives.
Baloney! You're so blinded by your love of sports that you can only regard this issue through the eyes of a jock, not the point of view of a nonathletic kid who has no interest in sports (whom you probably hold in contempt for the reason I stated above). I've already told you that as a middle-aged man who works out at a health club on a bodybuilding program that I'm quite in touch with my body, and I'm doing this without sports. The fact that you refuse to admit that a guy can get into top physical shape without participating in sports just shows how small-minded you are. I've also said that nonathletic kids get very little exercise in mandatory "sports only" P.E. classes (as opposed to genuine physical fitness classes). The facts are on my side, but I doubt that you're intellectually courageous or honest enough to check them out for yourself.
Quote:
I don't think this has to do with freedom of choice, only that I value physical education just a tad below math or history.
Historically speaking, as far as nonathletic boys were concerned, THERE WAS NO "EDUCATION" in compulsory sports. Again, read my comments above. Why should I repeat myself to someone who isn't even listening?
Quote:
To me, your question sounds as almost as: "why do you insist that all boys participate in math (chemistry, history, latin) class, regardless of whether or not they're even interested in them?"
I guess there would be nothing wrong in my insisting that all junior-high and high school boys take ballet lessons and participate in chess tournaments. (For the record, I'm interested in neither.) Makes about as much sense as the position you take.
Quote:
And perhaps I don't have a "live & let live" attitude on minors.
And that's because you're basically an authoritarian. You're a sports fascist.
Quote:
Adults may do as they wish.
My, my, my ... I'm glad that I have your permission.

I've noticed that you've received several "thumbs up" no doubt from mindless sports fans -- as opposed to those who are not mindless, but are reasonable and tolerant. (Or perhaps I've offended someone's cliquish sensitivity for standing up to a long-time member of this website's forum. I know that's naughty, naughty. Smile ) You people just can't admit that I have made the better argument. If fbaezer hadn't defended P.E. bullying, I would have posted only a single time in this post. Go ahead and sneer at me. I know that I'm right. Why don't all you guys who worship at the altar of sports (instead of just enjoying them as a form of recreation) go whine to Robert and plead with him to have me banned. You'd be doing me a favor. I've spent too much time here as it is. Smile Laughing Go ahead and vote me off the page. I won't be here to see it.

fbaezer, there's no point of discussing this issue with you (or any of your like-minded pals, for that matter) anymore. That would be the moral equivalent of spitting into the wind. Cheerio and adios!
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 06:56 pm
@wmwcjr,
You have no clue at all to the views of fbaeser.
You seem to be in the tharn of agita, re your own bias.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 08:04 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:


@fbaezer

I appreciate that you have responded in a civil manner without resorting to personal insult, which is the ingrained habit of certain longtime members of this forum. I would ask those individuals the following question: In real life (as you are online), are you in the habit of walking up to a complete stranger and insulting him just because he has a point of view that’s different from your own? Such a childish attitude doesn’t seek to understand why individual people happen to believe the way they do.



I agree with you in that point.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2010 09:41 am
@wmwcjr,
fbaezer wrote:
And perhaps I don't have a "live & let live" attitude on minors
wmwcjr wrote:
And that's because you're basically an authoritarian. ...
YES. That appears to be the case.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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