Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:22 am
@cicerone imposter,
Prove what ??? What was there to be proved ? Besides the point that without a definition you cannot assert anything...lol
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:23 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
You claim atheists are wrong; the reverse of that is you can prove god exists. You haven't done that.

You wrote:
Quote:
Concerning God there are two interdependent problems and not one...

...its not just about if God is or is not to be true, before WHAT is supposed to be in the first place...

To me it makes no difference, as God=Universe=Meta-verse=Multi-verse=Being, means just the same, one step up or one step down...I believe in Truth=Finity=Circular Infinity (but no new quality´s or property´s or new rules of Nature)
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:27 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You claim atheists are wrong; the reverse of that is you can prove god exists. You haven't done that.


An agnostic holds that for all he knows, atheists are wrong, but denies that he can prove that God exists.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:27 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

failures art wrote:

Lock the whole of philosophers in a room and keep them there for a decade. When they emerge, it will not be as if thought has been on pause for 10 years. The reason for this is because philosophers never have nor will they ever hold the keys to thought itself. Thinking is not optional (no matter how we joke about some individuals).

When Eistein introduced the idea of a fourth dimension and bent space, he did not simply capture the most elite scientific minds, he also captured the minds of artists, writers, and musicians. How many artists have over-clocked their imagination since 1917 trying to create some depiction of the 4th dimension in a piece of art?

Great thinking happens, and I'd say those in the armchairs self elevate their own importance to the practice of thinking. I won't say they are unimportant, but I'd say the most profound thinkers rarely wear the badge of "philosopher."

A
R
T


Einstein and Bohr thought they did. Hawking in our day thinks he does. And apparently you are unfamiliar with the names of W.V.O. Quine, Donald Davidson, Daniel Dennett, Saul Kripke, or else, you refuse to allow that they are profound thinkers just because they are philosophers. Which is flawed thinking since it is a textbook example of circular reasoning.


I never "refused" to acknowledge great thinkers just because they are philosophers. I'm saying that philosophers don't get to define thinking/thought itself. In other words, what is special about being a philosopher? What capability of thought is enabled that is otherwise out of reach?

A
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Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:27 am
@cicerone imposter,
go back and read it again...

And yes atheists are so wrong as theists are...given they do exactly the same categorical mistake by taking belief as Truth...Doubt both ways is the more minimalist attitude. But to even do that you still need a definition !!!
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:31 am
@failures art,
Its not philosophers that are special but PHILOSOPHY. (It concerns every aspect of the distinctiveness in human being and all types of knowledge in a unifying sense.)
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:35 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
By fashion, I am referring to this seemingly endless battle of egos when it comes to philosophy. It becomes less about thoughts, and more about brands.

The ability to quote or understand Plato, Nietzsche, or anyone else is great. However, it seems to be a more of a territorial exercise to exclude other thinkers or restrain creativity.

Nobody needs to identify with a philosophical brand. But for some reason, people do, and then they argue. They argue over brands, and I don't really observe any real new thought come out of the process. I see old ideas being put to battle. The foundation of new ideas does not require a base in any of these. Perhaps this is what Hawkins implies. Philosophy has no new frontier, and if it does, we seem to try and fill it with with relics of the old country... so to speak.

A
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T
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:37 am
@failures art,
Well, but with all that I agree to the full. (Nevertheless you must distinguish the formal institution from the thing.)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:42 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
That's your opinion. In my world, if something doesn't exist although it has an identity, I say I don't believe in it. I'm an atheist when it comes to Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and Harvey. Until somebody can produce evidence that they exist, I'll remain an atheist. It's not a matter of "I don't know."
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:45 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

That's your opinion. In my world, if something doesn't exist although it has an identity, I say I don't believe in it. I'm an atheist when it comes to Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and Harvey. Until somebody can produce evidence that they exist, I'll remain an atheist. It's not a matter of "I don't know."


Again...you USE LANGUAGE and CONCEPT in order to REFER !!!
The existence or not existence not of God but anything can only be posed through definition on Concept in the first place !
What were you thinking ??? Pay attention before shouting nonsense !
I am not where to quarrel with you, but with what was said...
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:46 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Its not philosophers that are special but PHILOSOPHY. (It concerns every aspect of the distinctiveness in human being and all types of knowledge in a unifying sense.)

We will disagree. I'd say "thinking" is the fruit in the garden and "philosophy" is the flowers. An orange blossom is a wonder to behold, but we planted the tree for the fruit.

Not all flowers bear fruit. Roses just wilt.

A
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:50 am
@failures art,
Quote:
Roses just wilt.

That's not very "hip" of you. (ho ho).
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:51 am
@failures art,
I empathise with the poetry in the expression...but ultimately do not get where you fund your reasoning on this specificity of Philosophy which does not make it Universal to all kinds and forms of expressing concern with Knowledge for what is worth to us.

Philosophy is the human window to the world ! ( a window that can fit many shapes...)
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 12:11 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Perhaps you mean that there are "better" and "worse" "Philosophy's"...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 12:33 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I am not shouting; you shout with ignorance, and have not responded with any intelligence to my opinions. We don't need definitions about god, santa clause, tooth fairy, or harvey. Most of us know "who" they are; all fictional characters.

That you can't see the simplicity of this fact is your problem, not mine.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 12:41 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

The meaning or usefulness of Truth may even not be neutral when applied, but to imply from there that Truth is therefore relative to moral form is the same as saying that moral form itself has no particular meaning...
You navigate dangerous waters !...

On the contrary Moral form is dependent on whether there is a fixed Truth in the first place, or an order axis, from which we can stablish several layers to which it can conform. ("Gravity belts of relation")

Well, I could hardly argue otherwise... I have never seen a truth or a freedom or a justice or a virtue so to say it has only a relative meaning, or a subjective meaning is fair enough, but I would say that having no being means all moral forms are meaning only... And, for me there is a fixed truth and for you there is likely a fixed truth, one single standard of truth for both of us that is entirely different for both of us; and it is life... Anything that kills me is bad... There is a truth for the ages... Anything that saves me is good... Make a sign,, hang it on your wall because with that knowledge you can judge all truth...Otherwise truth is just a meaning with no particular meaning, and it would be so were life, our lives not behind all judgements of meaning...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 12:49 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

I'm not going to go into what "knowledge" is, and whether "judgement" (moral or otherwise) is involved. I merely note that your remarks are anthropocentric, thereby adding to apparent religious tendencies. Some scientists/philosophers have seen anthropocentrism as parochial.

Of course not... In a thread on philosophy and physics who would want to talk about what knowledge is, or in what sense judgement is involved in knowledge...

And yup, funny old me having my remarks anthropocentric... I forgot I was supposed to have them fit to a granite slabe, kept at a predetermined temperature with a lazer cut surface... Get real... Reality has got to work for some body, and man is the measure of all things...In fact, all our measures, and all our means of comprehending reality, all our devices and tools are extensions of our senses, and one might conclude: having the same falability.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 12:53 pm
@amer,
amer wrote:

In my view both Hawkings and his fellow crusaders of the church of athiesm are hell bent on distorting truth. Sorry, this is an extremely strong statement and I do not make it lightly. They hold a dogmatic belief that no God exists. They believe in their unproven and unprovable statement and present physical evidence from time to time which in their view is proof of their world view. What they present is nothing of the sort. At best they are presenting physical models which do not contain God as their initial condition but then which scientific model does that? So proposing theories which satisfy this scientific condition is no proof against the existence of God. Its not even close!

On Hawkings book - The physical model M-Theory of Supersymmetry is an unproven theory at best and at worst its wrong and in the worst case scenario is not even testable and makes no predictions and may not be capable of doing so (there are two many parameters to choose from)!
Hawkings book is a disgrace to the open minded intellectual thinker and should be consigned to the alter of the dogma and deceivers.

He believes he has found his ultimate truth and therefore all thought is now closed i.e. no more philosophy!! Remind you of something?? ....The inquisitions? the trial of Galileo!

It is old stuff; Occams Razor and the like... If you want to know the true cause of any event you must exclude first the most ulikely causes... It was a churchman who said: nature is not abundant with superfluities... If God wants to put his finger on all our scales it has to be presumed it is already there...Better to take God as a constant, which is to say: Like Ether, always there, or always not, but making little actual difference either way...
0 Replies
 
amer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 12:59 pm
@fresco,
What oxymoron! Just because you disagree, now that's bizarre. Clearly, you are a 'follower' and a fan and so I will leave you to it.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 01:03 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Your idea that knowledge can be made a foundation for good morals while belief cannot, what is that based on? And who's to say what's knowledge and what's belief?

At the heart of morals is the life of man, and mankind... Cutlures as knowledge, know, because they can see longterm as a single person cannot see, what behaviors are delinquent to society and humanity, and which contribute to our well being; but no one even looks for the knowledge of culture unless they have enough moral sense to look for a more objective judge... Individuals are not blessed with the vision and judgement to guage the effects of their own behavior, so they are commonly left with the single judgement that pleasure is good... If it feels good, do it is the destruction of society... Physics is just one of those ativities people do because it feels good...And good may come out of it though not much so far... It is only that culture must get a hold of physics and teach it some manors, explain to physics what knowledge is good for and what good can be judged in relation to... That is all...
0 Replies
 
 

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