0
   

A "thank you" card from one of the saved.

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 03:35 pm
@PUNKEY,
Quote:
But I object that she implies that our troops are killing and raping the citizens of that nation.


Again, why do you object when you really have no idea of the truth?

Quote:
If Layla wanted to really make some changes, she should have gotten involved in her nation's political, economical, educational, or medical fields long ago . . . .Oh wait! . . . She was not allowed to! . . . Poor girl.


More propaganda, Punkey. You've got to start asking some serious questions of and about your government and its actions, not to mention its "stories". Before the 1991 "war" with Iraq,

Quote:
July 25 - US Ambassador April Galaspie told Iraq that their dispute with Kuwait is not a US matter


Are you familiar with the term duplicity? From that debacle, sanctions were imposed on an Iraq that,

Quote:
Health

Before 1990 and the imposition of sanctions, Iraq had one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East. Now Unicef reports that at least 200 children are dying every day. They are dying from malnutrition, a lack of clean water and a lack of medical equipment and drugs to cure easily treatable diseases.


The current food ration, while nearly sufficient in calories, does not include enough vitamins, minerals and protein for health or growth. Malnutrition is now endemic amongst children. Diseases like kwashiorkor or marasmus are common in paediatric wards. Before 1990 the most important problem faced by Iraqi paediatricians was childhood obesity.

Many sewage treatment plants were targets of the air strikes during the war. Others have since disintegrated without equipment and spare parts from abroad. Chlorine and other water purification chemicals are now banned under 'dual use' considerations. As a result children are dying of what should be treatable diseases: simple diarrhoea, typhoid, dysentery and other water-borne illnesses.

The health system has disintegrated under sanctions. Hospitals are short staffed with doctors' and nurses' salaries insufficient to support them. Medical equipment like incubators, X-ray machines, and heart and lung machines are banned. The Security Council consistently blocks vaccines, analgesics and chemotherapy drugs, claiming they could be converted into chemical or biological weapons. Problems with transportation and refrigeration mean that even drugs that are allowed - like antibiotics - arrive only intermittently. Children with leukaemia, who can be saved with a full course of antibiotics, die, because one dose is missing.

Morphine, the most effective painkiller has been banned by the Security Council. At the same time the number of cases of cancer has risen sharply especially in southern Iraq.

After the Gulf war Iraq was not allowed the equipment to clean up its battlefields. More than 1 million rounds of weapons coated in depleted uranium (basically nuclear waste) were used by the allies during the war. As much as 300 tonnes of expended DU ammunition now lies scattered throughout Kuwait and Iraq.

Depleted uranium dust gets into the food chain via water and the soil. It can be ingested and inhaled. Prolonged internal exposure leads to respiratory diseases, breakdown of the immune system, leukaemia, lung cancer and bone cancer.

Cases of cancers in Iraq have risen tenfold since 1990. If cancers continue on the present upward curve, 44 per cent of the population could develop cancer within ten years.



Odd behavior, don't you agree, Punkey, for a country that continually, incessantly, tells us how these invasions are to save the oppressed?

There's more:

Quote:
Education

In 1990 Iraq had one of the highest rates of literacy in the world. The Iraqi government maintained its commitment to high quality education even during the Iran/Iraq war.

The government built schools, trained teachers, and distributed free textbooks and other school supplies.


Graduates from high school were accepted in universities throughout the world. Primary school children received milk, cod liver oil, hummus, fresh fruit and vitamin supplements on daily basis.

This system has been gradually destroyed over the last ten years. Iraqi teacher salaries have fallen from $400 to $3 per month. Teachers have to work a second job in order to earn enough to survive.

Delegations from Unicef, AFSC and other humanitarian organisations paint the same picture. In classrooms all over the country children sit on the floor during lessons. There are no desks or chairs even for teachers. There are no school supplies: books, pencils and paper are all banned under 'dual use' considerations. Each class shares a single dilapidated textbook

"We are told that pencils are forbidden because carbon could be extracted from them that might be used to coat aeroplanes and make them invisible to radar. I am not a military expert, but I find it very disturbing that because of this objection, we cannot give pencils to Iraqi school children." (Farid Zarif, deputy director of the UN humanitarian program in Baghdad. New York Times, 3 January 1999)

Schools have no heating or cooling systems where previously each classroom had a stove and a fan. Sanitation facilities are minimal. Children with gastroenteritis have to be sent home because toilets are broken. Many of the children in the classrooms appear visibly malnourished or stunted. It is common for children to faint with hunger.

Agriculture

In 1999 74% of Iraq's arable land had salinity problems. This figure is increasing steadily with several thousand hectares of land going out of cultivation annually. This coupled with a lack of functioning agricultural equipment, fertilisers, pesticides, herbicides and seeds has resulted in a massive decline in food production.

Livestock poultry and fish industries have suffered through severe shortages in spare parts for equipment and veterinary drugs. Bombing raids during and since the Gulf War killed many livestock. The bombardment affected conditions of surface soil, destroying plants and causing soil erosion.

Foot and mouth disease is now present throughout Iraq and is threatening to spread to neighbouring countries. The factory that was used to produce food and mouth disease vaccines was put out of commission by Unscom's biological weapons monitoring programme. Lack of refrigeration and transport facilities make it hard to distribute the vaccines that can be imported from abroad.

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=115


I hope that you can see that your attempts to dismiss Layla and her Iraq are simply more mean spirited propaganda. Iraq didn't get to be where it got to be by not having a pretty decent professional level.

You write a few lines "discussing" Layla with no mention of the horrendous, absolutely horrendous evil the US has heaped upon Iraq and then how many paragraphs starting the whine about the poor ole US of A.

Quote:
Hey, I don't condone war and had hoped that this whole thing could have been solved differently. But it wasn't.

I guess I'm one of the few that feels Saddam had the opportunity to stop it at the beginning. And Bush didn't have to go in so fast. But there we are and we will have a "presence" there for many years.

So much is said about how many troops are coming home, but not much is said about those going over to replace them. 3,000 men from Michigan from the National Guard will leave over the next 3 months. 6,000 total from Michigan in the next 3 years. Plus private contractors are being hired to take over some of the military duties.


Stop trying to make out that this illegal, immoral invasion is anything close to a 'war'. There's way way way too much said about the troops, about what the USA is going through but there's precious little being said, your posts illustrate this clearly, about the pain and suffering and death of Iraqis, I must remind you, at the hand of your government.

While you might not condone wars, you seem to be doing a pretty awesome job of condoning illegal invasions.
Arjuna
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 05:40 pm
@JTT,
The woman's tone is conducive to what we grieve. She refers to "Shiite shits." No American is making her refer to her kin in that manner.

Your own tone mirrors hers.

Abuse is like a pebble in a pond. It spreads out in time and space fouling everything in its path, breeding bitterness. Bitterness is a monster maker. If you let it turn you into a monster, then you will have wounded yourself worse than anybody else ever could.

Read what she wrote again. Feel the tone of it. Many people make the sad mistake of imagining that their own pain and rage is punishment to the villian who hurt them. It doesn't work that way. If you curse the world, your curses only wash back up on your own shore.

That's Christianity. I'm sure there is some kind of religion in Iraq. Would they not do well to find it and use it? I'm sure some do. May they write their own blogs.
blueveinedthrobber
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 06:21 pm
could we just agree that there's no good guys here at all and the death, destruction and chaos is sad and wasteful?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 06:58 pm
@Arjuna,
Quote:
She refers to "Shiite shits."


A "Crtl F" finds no such phrase, Arjuna.

Quote:
Read what she wrote again. Feel the tone of it.


A new tact, Arjuna, because the facts are too tough to face. Noam Chomsky says it's hard for anyone to look in the mirror but it's essential to do so.

The "tone" is righteous anger for 20 years of unrelenting abuse [just for her life] from western powers, most recently the USA but certainly England shares in that abuse.

By comparison, listen to the "righteous anger", the whining, the indignant outrage from those in western countries who have felt the sting from sel-induced blowback, from what had they invited to their shores.

The "tone" is completely understandable considering the propaganda put forward by the west, again, mostly the USA.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 07:06 pm
@blueveinedthrobber,
Quote:
could we just agree that there's no good guys here at all and the death, destruction and chaos is sad and wasteful?


That's not where the US likes to leave things, Bear, when the opportunity arises to play the "we won't allow war crimes to take place on the planet" card.

Why would you suggest war crimes be excused with a simple dismissal? That's precisely what allows the next miscreant, the same miscreants to do this all over again.

I really can't imagine the same degree of equanimity from you, or from too many people if the USA had suffered a Nicaragua [30 to 50,000] or a Vietnam [3+million] or an Iraq [looking like a million] or two Afghanistans [a million, a million and a half]. Would you really feel the same way?
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 08:14 pm
you miss my point. And i would feel even worse of course. I'm not dimissing anything just commenting on the waste, which I believe was the point Diane was making, not a policital statement.
0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 08:24 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:


A "Crtl F" finds no such phrase, Arjuna.

It's in the blog. You posted the address.

If all you want is a war of words, ignore me.

Your message is logically inconsistent and factually in error. Your anger has the potential to be meaningful. There's a way that it can be.

Yes, her anger is understandable. So is yours. If you don't try to understand what you're calling the USA, you're making the same mistake the Bush administration made when it invaded Iraq. To understand, you have to put your anger on the shelf long enough to see the truth.

Don't worry, your anger will still be there when you get back. But you'll be in a better position to use it productively. See what I mean?

JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 09:51 pm
@Arjuna,
Quote:
If all you want is a war of words, ignore me.


I'd rather words about the illegal wars, the ones that repeatedly cause the deaths of tens and hundreds of thousands ranging up to millions of innocents lives.

Quote:
Your message is logically inconsistent and factually in error. Your anger has the potential to be meaningful. There's a way that it can be.


And you've divined all this how?

Quote:
Yes, her anger is understandable. So is yours. If you don't try to understand what you're calling the USA, you're making the same mistake the Bush administration made when it invaded Iraq. To understand, you have to put your anger on the shelf long enough to see the truth.

Don't worry, your anger will still be there when you get back. But you'll be in a better position to use it productively. See what I mean?


I'm all ears, Arjuna.
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2010 07:31 am
" . . . invasions are to save the oppressed?"

Are you so naive as to think THAT is the reason we have a military presence in the middle east?

People have always suffered in wartime. My heart goes out to the OP - sounds like this is very personal.

My point is that NOW she is free to say and write her feelings. In her own country's newspapers.

. . and you are free to state yours here at home.

But do NOT imply that our troops over there are murderers and rapists.

In fact THANK YOU for giving me a new project at this time in my life. I plan to work to ensure that the American public are very aware of the sacrifices that our military personnel gives - all over the world BY ORDER OF OUR OWN GOVERNMENT - and to make sure that they are not perceived as murderers and rapists.

Goodbye A2K!!


JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2010 10:11 am
@PUNKEY,
Quote:
Are you so naive as to think THAT is the reason we have a military presence in the middle east?

People have always suffered in wartime. My heart goes out to the OP - sounds like this is very personal.

My point is that NOW she is free to say and write her feelings. In her own country's newspapers.

. . and you are free to state yours here at home.

But do NOT imply that our troops over there are murderers and rapists.


Do not imply that this was in any way a war. It was and is an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. It is a crime against humanity.

naive is what describes you, Punkey, and many of your fellow citizens. Many just outright don't give a **** when a million foreigners are butchered by your government.

The limited number of videos and reports that have come through point up that some of your troops are indeed murderers and rapists. I'm sure many are not.


Quote:
Saddam can never be allowed a fair trial

by Eric S. Margolis, Toronto Sun

July 31, 2003

If put on public trial, Saddam Hussein would have a field day revealing the embarrassing alliance between his brutal regime and Washington:

• CIA's role in bringing the Ba'ath Party to power in a 1958 coup, opening the way for Saddam to take control.

• US, Israeli, Iranian destabilization of Iraq during the 1970's by fueling Kurdish rebellion. Washington's egging on the aggressive Shah of Iran in the Shatt al-Arab waterway dispute, a primary cause of the Iran-Iraq War.

• US secretly urging Iraq to invade Iran in 1980 to overthrow that nation's revolutionary Islamic government.

• Covert supply of Saddam's war machine by the US and Britain during the eight-year Iran-Iraq conflict: biological warfare programs and germ feeder stocks, poison gas manufacturing plants and raw materials. Billions in aid, routed through the US Department of Agriculture, Italy's Banco del Lavoro, and the shady bank, BCCI. Heavy artillery, munitions, spare parts, trucks, field hospitals, and electronics.

Equally important, the US Defense Intelligence Agency and CIA operated offices in Baghdad that provided Iraq with satellite intelligence data on Iranian troop deployments that provided decisive in the war's titanic battles at Basra, Majnoon, and Faw.

• The murky role played by Washington just before Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait. The US Ambassador told Saddam 'the US takes no position in Arab border disputes.' Was this a trap to lure Saddam to invade Kuwait, then crush his army, or simple diplomatic bungling? Saddam could supply the awkward answers.

In short, Saddam was one of America's closet Mideast allies during the 1980's, a major recipient of US military and financial aid. Saddam's killing of large numbers of Kurds and Shia rebels occurred while he was a key US ally. Washington remained mute at the time. When Bush I called on Kurds and Shia to revolt in 1991, the US watched impassively as Saddam slaughtered the poorly-armed rebels.

Better a bullet-riddled Saddam, or one executed by a military kangaroo court in Guantanamo, or hanged by the new, American- installed 'Vichy' Iraqi regime in Baghdad.

Saddam should be handed over by the US to the UN War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague that is currently trying Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic and other accused Balkan war criminals. After all, it was Washington that engineered Milosevic's delivery to the Hague, an act for which the US deserves high praise. What applies to Milosevic applies equally to Saddam Hussein.

In fact, it would be better for the Iraqi leader to stand trial at the newly constituted International War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague. But the Bush Administration, in one of its most shameful acts, has refused to join this tribunal or cooperate with it.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2010 10:18 am
@PUNKEY,
In fact THANK YOU for giving me a new project at this time in my life. I plan to work to ensure that the American public are very aware of the sacrifices that our military personnel gives - all over the world BY ORDER OF OUR OWN GOVERNMENT - and to make sure that they are not perceived as murderers and rapists.

That'll be good, Punkey. It's not like there's already enough of that propaganda delivered by the minute to the American public.

Maybe your first order of business could be to tell of the Tiger Force in Vietnam or the role of the CIA in planning torture, rape, murder, assassinations in numerous countries around the world, BY ORDER OF OUR OWN GOVERNMENT.

That'll be good. Get the word out.
0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2010 06:34 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

And you've divined all this how?
I used my noggin'

JTT wrote:

I'm all ears, Arjuna.
I understand some things about the American invasion of Iraq. For a spell it left me confused and unnerved. I don't tolerate confusion too well... so I followed my habit: I looked for answers. I remember a evening drive home when I had to pull off the road and think. I'd just heard on the radio news that a reporter had asked GW Bush for an explanation of how Iraq was an eminent threat. He said "You'll just have to trust me."

That's when I realized that there was something going on I needed to pay attention to. It was over a period of about six months that I pieced together the important components of the situation... to satisfy myself, anyway. Prior to that I'd been concerned that I'd have to put aside what my life was about and work on limiting the war-power of the President. That would take a Constitutional amendment. Yea...

I divine that there's little point in my telling you what I understand... I think I'd be pissing in the wind. And what I understand may have no bearing on the things that would be pertinent to you.

Bottom line is this: anger is energy. That energy is asking for action. Until you find the way to act appropriately, the energy is basically being wasted... it's meaningless. Understanding the world you live in allows you to see the action that will accomplish the thing your anger is pointing toward.

Be open-minded. Be as clear as you can in your thinking. Tie the endeavor to who you are. This makes you unstoppable. And as many a wise person has advised: have faith in yourself and in people. Be what you want your world to be. If you start by writing off your own kind, then what's the point of struggling with it at all? To be right? They aren't giving out brownie points in heaven for how right you are. It's did you do what you were born to do?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2010 10:20 pm
@Arjuna,
Quote:
I used my noggin'


That doesn't tell me how you've figured out that my message is logically inconsistent and factually in error. Only the right wingers who can't face the truth have denied the things I've posted, and even they won't discuss them for fear that they'll discover things that they definitely do not want to face.

You keep working on your end, Arjuna, and I wish you all the best in your endeavor and I'll keep workin' on mine.

I think that getting a CA is pretty unlikely. Putting a few ex-prezes behind bars is the best way to ensure that they act in the future with a caution that rational human beings ought to use.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Sep, 2010 04:36 pm
@JTT,
After reading this timeline about our involvement in Iraq I was better able to see the whole picture. Tell me what you think.
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php
0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Sep, 2010 05:10 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
I used my noggin'


That doesn't tell me how you've figured out that my message is logically inconsistent and factually in error. Only the right wingers who can't face the truth have denied the things I've posted, and even they won't discuss them for fear that they'll discover things that they definitely do not want to face.

You keep working on your end, Arjuna, and I wish you all the best in your endeavor and I'll keep workin' on mine.

I think that getting a CA is pretty unlikely. Putting a few ex-prezes behind bars is the best way to ensure that they act in the future with a caution that rational human beings ought to use.

It turned out there was no need to seek a CA. Bush never used the Constitutional War Power. He made it known that he was willing to use it, but never had to.

As I said, I'd discuss it further, but I REALLY don't feel like arguing about it.

I sense that we're on the same side. That's all that matters.
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 01:17 pm
So both of you will be spitting on troops that come back ?

Lovely.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 04:09 pm
@PUNKEY,
Quote:
So both of you will be spitting on troops that come back ?

Lovely.


Did the screen door hit you on your way out, Punkey? Did it leave a bruise?

How's the propaganda campaign goin' ? It's actually a pretty easy sell across most of America, seein' as how the school system and the government/media [one and the same just like in Nazis Germany] constantly churn out the "good guys" propaganda.
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 06:32 am
JTT_

Actually, all I wanted to do was to give this thread a boost so that your vile diatribe is brought out for all to see. I want to keep it front and center.

You are as dangerouos as that nut case in Florida who wants to burn the Quran.

Your comments about our troops is a great model of a very dangerous movement and mindset. I have already shared it with the other mothers and familiy members in our National Guard unit. I have also asked for comment from my US Senator.

I am now a proud Blue Star mother. My nephew just got deployed to Iraq as a part of the Military Police training - National Guard.

Someone was right: anger does make for energy.

I have concluded that you are NOT a US citizen.
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 06:34 am
@PUNKEY,
Front and Center
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 06:35 am
For all to see
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/13/2024 at 10:29:43