7
   

Does common sense exist?

 
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 09:25 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

kenneth, There is no relationship between logic and common sense. "Common sense" is often applied to groups, but not all groups think all issues will be agreed upon. Logic, on the other hand, is based on a statement that is coherent and consistent with intelligent reasoning that can be agreed upon by all groups.


It is commonsense to use logic because using logic is the best way of arriving at truth, and it is commonsense to want to arrive at truth.
Common sense arrives at a conclusion without being able to trace its steps in logic... It is common sense that what you like, and find agreeable, others will as well, though you may never be able to explain your liking or justify your conclusion in regard to others... Common sense is insightful, and not logical...With all your love of logic Kenn; can you say what it is good for other than showing cause and effect for events we have already recognized as linked my insight... Nature teaches what is logical, and logic teaches nature nothing... I think the best example of insight and logic is found in the work of Galaleo... Clearly, insight led his thoughts, and then only by cleverly designed experiments and illustrations was he able to prove his conclusions were logical...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 09:32 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

No. You still have it wrong. Common sense is group think. Depending on the issue, it may include logic, but not necessarily the basis for group think.

You have it wrong, and Dr. Franklin had it correct when he concluded there is nothing common about common sense... It is like the man who first stood an egg on its end, which any one could do once the first man showed them how... It was only common sense, but until it was shared it was anything but common... I contracted a job once for some people who did not want to pay me all I was due because I made it look easy... They thought they were being cheated, but the fact was that until I showed them, they had no idea how they would proceed short of renting an expensive rig and paying an operator... What was my common sense??? Where there is a will there is a way...
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 09:41 am
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have.
Rene Descartes
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 09:44 am
@Fido,
Common sense doesn't apply to what a man can do with an egg. It is considered "sound judgment" only. The reason many people confuse its meaning is because it is very difficult to assume something as subjective as having consistency even amongst the same group.

I will provide this example: Most catholics used to believe that they shouldn't eat meat on Friday. For them, it was common sense to follow this instruction from the church. Was this rule followed by all Catholics? Probably the majority, because they felt it was common sense to follow church edicts. For them, it was "sound judgment."

No other church that I know of had this restriction; it was a "group" thing.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 09:50 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

No. You still have it wrong. Common sense is group think. Depending on the issue, it may include logic, but not necessarily the basis for group think.


The definition of "commonsense" is (and the one we are using) is "prudent sound judgment" You must have forgotten. And it is a judgment which is prudent and sound to use logic, for the reasons I have already given.

Knowledge is judgement, and as such, all our form/ideas/notions/concepts are judgements ready made for us to use.... As Socrates proved with the slave in the attempt to prove metaphysical knowledge, we all know more than we think, and if we are able to think as we would call it, creatively; then we might use our knowledge subconsiously to reach conclusions by insight... Logic is about proof... Every correct conclusion adds to logic, and what is considered in retrospect to be logical; but not every correct conclusion is the direct result of logic.. In moral reality no logic works, but what works for people and societies must be logical even if no law can be formulated from it... When we teach a subject it is the logic of it we teach... What of subjects having no specific logic??? How can morals ever be understood except through common sense??? And where are you in the discussion if you cannot find the logic of it???

I would urge you to look at the Germans who have prided themselves on their logic, and they are a very rational people... Suicides were not so uncommon among the SS and others charged with the execution of unarmed civilians... Logic and even science in their eyes denied the rights and humanity of those they murdered... But common sense told them it it looks like a human, and walks and talks like a human then it is a human, and killing one is a crime, and a sin... Reason and commonsense is the difference between a philosopher and an educated fool... We all know them, people who are educated, and knowledgeable who need: Open other end, written on the bottom of their garbage cans... Some people are always trying to reinvent the wheel who can't change a flat tire... Don't be one of them...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 09:55 am
@Fido,
Fido, I'm afraid you are confused. Some cultures believed in cannibalism. It was group thinking that made it okay to eat other humans. They believed it was morally and logically justified.

The balls in your court.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 10:11 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Common sense doesn't apply to what a man can do with an egg. It is considered "sound judgment" only. The reason many people confuse its meaning is because it is very difficult to assume something as subjective as having consistency even amongst the same group.

I will provide this example: Most catholics used to believe that they shouldn't eat meat on Friday. For them, it was common sense to follow this instruction from the church. Was this rule followed by all Catholics? Probably the majority, because they felt it was common sense to follow church edicts. For them, it was "sound judgment."

No other church that I know of had this restriction; it was a "group" thing.
To follow the common morality is common sense because no person can survive well without the supoort of their community... But it clearly takes common sense to reach a simple and a correct conclusion when brighter minds fail to using their train of logic... Common sense is common to common people who must get by on their wits, who are not like the intelligent, the wealthy, the educated, or the blessed... It does not so much matter what the book says or what a person is taught... What works, works... It was once commonly accepted that the earth was the center of the universe and clearly, that all revolved around us; and in addition, that this was supported by the church which knew all and was blessed with all essential knowledge.... To reach a different conclusion it was only necessary to know that the math supporting the logical conclusion was incorrect, and math being the most logical of pursuits could not be in contradiction with reality... That is only common sense, but logic exist in such a large frame of morals and physical reality that few could grasp the whole of the picture at once... What the logic of math was telling them they could ignore because reason was only one consideration for them among many, and this after medieval philosophers had concluded that even God could not be in contradiction with reason...Perhaps the more common conclusion, that the sun rises and sets had possession of their imaginations...But only in that sense is common sense group think, as the difference between what is evident and what is obvious...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 10:22 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Fido, I'm afraid you are confused. Some cultures believed in cannibalism. It was group thinking that made it okay to eat other humans. They believed it was morally and logically justified.

The balls in your court.
People were cannibals out of necessity first, and out of a want of technology second.... It was technology that made slavery possible, when one could bind a person, castrate them, or other wise keep them tractable... It is a lesson for all those who say, based upon their own common sense, that human nature will never change... Surely we change our forms because we cannot very well change our natures, but our natures, what we thought natural and moral has changed as our technology (forms) has changed... We no longer hang children for stealing bread, but bread is also cheaper and easier to produce...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 10:44 am
@Fido,
Who said it was a necessity? Is that your judgment? How about human sacrifice? Was that out of necessity?

We are talking about group think; not how they have "advanced" (I use this word loosely) their culture.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Who said it was a necessity? Is that your judgment? How about human sacrifice? Was that out of necessity?

We are talking about group think; not how they have "advanced" (I use this word loosely) their culture.

Of course it was a necessity... Look a New Guinne... There were simply no protean sources comparable to a human being until recent times... Where it was possible people soon resorted to slavery, because slavery is more efficient... Man as the vocal intrament can be told what to do, and will do it... Animals must be guided in every activity...Of human sacrifice, you must certainly know that every one sacrifices for every relationship they are a part of... That was the charge against Christians, that they would not sacrifice for the Genius of the Emperor...And the practice has its reminders even to the present moment... London bridge, the rhyme is reminicent of such a sacrifice, and though often it was only the bones of a Virgin that was laid in the foundations, originally every corner stone was an altar... Was it necessary??? It was only common sense that our gods were like us, and took their pay from the living just as we would take our pay from each other... We never bothered to ask for something with nothing to trade...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:51 pm
@Fido,
It's not out of "necessity." Those things were dreamed up by somebody in their group, and thought it was a good idea to enforce within their group.

The only necessity for living is food, shelter, and sex. Everything else is not required for human survival. and cannot be considered "essential" to live. They are subjective needs that may be detrimental or negative to the general health of the population.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's not out of "necessity." Those things were dreamed up by somebody in their group, and thought it was a good idea to enforce within their group.

The only necessity for living is food, shelter, and sex. Everything else is not required for human survival. and cannot be considered "essential" to live. They are subjective needs that may be detrimental or negative to the general health of the population.

So; you know this; and how???
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 04:09 pm
@Fido,
Understanding of human nature and history.
north
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 08:37 pm
@cg2028,
cg2028 wrote:

common sense: sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts.

What is generally regarded as common sense is not, as I feel, what the world follows. Is there such a thing as common sense and, if so, what could one consider common sense?

This is referring to "common sense" applied in life decisions and political decisions.


generally , common sense life decisions are base on basic survival thinking

common sense politically , is based on what the people want to hear , rather than what should be really done for the good of the people , even if the people don't understand this at the time
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 09:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Understanding of human nature and history.


To say those things were dreamed up means you understand squat about human nature and history... People living on the edge of anhilation didn't have room in their baggage for stuff people dreamed up... Morals and technology all had to carry their own weight... If they did not serve the purpose of survival it was left behind with the dead...We have a lot of garbage in our luggage that was dreamed up by people, but we have the technology enough to support a lot of stupidity and dead weight... We are not living on the edge; yet...

Is that the extent of your existence: Food, shelter, and sex??? Is there no place for culture in your design, no language, no myth, no religion, no magic???Those people were alive once, and no so different from ourselves... They may have suffered a want of technology, but they never suffered a want of intelligence, or will...They just couldn't have existed for a moment with the nutty ideas you carry around in your bean...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 10:10 pm
@north,
north wrote:

cg2028 wrote:

common sense: sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts.

What is generally regarded as common sense is not, as I feel, what the world follows. Is there such a thing as common sense and, if so, what could one consider common sense?

This is referring to "common sense" applied in life decisions and political decisions.


generally , common sense life decisions are base on basic survival thinking

common sense politically , is based on what the people want to hear , rather than what should be really done for the good of the people , even if the people don't understand this at the time
Common sense is not always true to reality, but it is seldom wrong to society...Nicolaus Copernicus in his dedication of The Revolutions of the Spheres to Pope Paul III showed a lot of good common sense, even waiting till old age left him little but death to suffer; while Galileo, in mocking the Pope, showed extremely little common sense...Common sense is moral sense, not only knowing what is right, but having the ability to put truth in perspective.... Truth means something to the living... There is no point dying for it, when it cannot, and will not, die for you...People should tell the truth... I make a habit of it... There is no point in getting obnoxious about it... Most people can only handle the truth is small doses, and any more than that, and they get violently ill....And I do mean violent...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 10:14 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
Quote:
Common sense is moral sense, not only knowing what is right, but having the ability to put truth is perspective.


Hold it there, kimosabe. Moral sense is not an established code for all cultures/tribes/humans. What you may consider moral may be immoral to somebody else. It's a subjective term, and it depends on who uses that term.

Most people say they learn their morals from their religion. All well and good; who's religion is moral?
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 10:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Fido wrote:
Quote:
Common sense is moral sense, not only knowing what is right, but having the ability to put truth is perspective.


Hold it there, kimosabe. Moral sense is not an established code for all cultures/tribes/humans. What you may consider moral may be immoral to somebody else. It's a subjective term, and it depends on who uses that term.

Most people say they learn their morals from their religion. All well and good; who's religion is moral?
I agree that morals are not objective, but they tend toward the objective... Moral forms are not absolutes, but they tend toward the absolute... Morals and moral forms are infinites which are always perceived subjectively, but if they did not have some objective positive result they would only be more dead wood for humanity to carry...

We all have approximately the same moral values, and have nearly all had the Incest Taboo...The reason may be stated simply: a father daughter consanguineous relationship has a 50% chance of producing a child with an anomaly, birth defect to you... A murder anywhere produces a dead person who will never be any good to his family and so, was a waste of precious resources... Adultery and avarice stir up hard feelings that are not soon forgotten... On and on, so that what the missionaries said of the Native Americans is universally true, that they had the ten commandments written in their hearts... Primitives were moral and honorable people because they had no choice... It was the original method of making friends and influencing people... Their honor was their best defense and recomendation... Who are you going to trust??? Who are you going to have as neighbors, or marry up with???
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 10:47 pm
@Fido,
"Tend toward" is something like half pregnant. It's there or it's not. It's still based on one's environment, learning, and independent perception and interpretation. It remains subjective, because everybody's reality is different.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 11:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

"Tend toward" is something like half pregnant. It's there or it's not. It's still based on one's environment, learning, and independent perception and interpretation. It remains subjective, because everybody's reality is different.
You can show me something that is more true than another, but you cannot show me truth as an absolute, or any absolute truth... The truth will always have something of the subjective to it, and even the most objective of truths, things like the sun and moon that we can all share can only be shared from our particular perspectives so they tend toward being objectively the same reality for each of us without guite being there...

Give up philosophy if you think everything has to be black or white... That is not reality... You have not got a delicate and subtle mind, or nimble, able in any sense to weigh intangibles... You are not cut out for philosophy... You do not know enough, and you do not think well enough... And I know you may think I am being too kind; but I do not care what you think because you have shown me with a few words the extent of your knowledge...
0 Replies
 
 

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