Telamon
 
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 01:00 am
"I don't understand why prostitution is illegal. Selling is legal. F***** is legal. Why isn't selling f***** legal? You know, why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away? I can't follow the logic on that one at all! Of all the things you can do, giving someone an orgasm is hardly the worst thing in the world. In the army they give you a medal for spraying napalm on people! In civilian life you go to jail for giving someone an orgasm!" -George Carlin

I’d have to agree to this argument on some level, your thoughts? (keeping in mind, the subject is legal prostitution. Not rape, coercion, blackmail, etc. etc.)
 
Solmeci
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 03:04 am
@Telamon,
I believe the argument at its base is that it can be exploitative. For example Legalising it will allow the pimps and crims to bring in girls from other countries (usually tricked or forced) and whore them out and because it will then be legal at some level it will be harder (than it already is) to stop.

All we can use the whole religious and immoral argument and that it will damn your soul to hell for all eternity.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 06:42 am
Supposedly, pimps and criminals bring in women from other countries now.

A long time ago, a man I knew had been a business major. He took a job with one of the big three automakers while still a student. Because prostitutes were bought and paid for with corporate expense accounts, he quit his job and changed his major to psychology.
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 06:47 am
Beats me why sex between two consenting adults can be illegal.

I suppose it's the paying for it that has everyone in a flury. Oldest profession and such . . .

And the possible victimization of the person providing the "service.'

There are legal brothels. You can be sure the government will be in on the deal if there's money being exchanged.
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 07:56 am
@Telamon,
Telamon wrote:

"I don't understand why prostitution is illegal. Selling is legal. F***** is legal. Why isn't selling f***** legal? You know, why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away? I can't follow the logic on that one at all! Of all the things you can do, giving someone an orgasm is hardly the worst thing in the world. In the army they give you a medal for spraying napalm on people! In civilian life you go to jail for giving someone an orgasm!" -George Carlin

I’d have to agree to this argument on some level, your thoughts? (keeping in mind, the subject is legal prostitution. Not rape, coercion, blackmail, etc. etc.)

Society has the right to protect itself from behavior likely to result in disease, disipation, or demoralization... It may seem like a harmless transaction, like buying porn, but if we do not understand the circumstances, and do not care we are doing some one an injustice, and are immoral for that... Most economic transactions grow out of unequal need and supply... One has what another wants and the one who wants is at a disadvantage, unless what one is selling, like labor one need to sell to suvive, and everyone is in the same boat... If there were no government regulations on the price of labor it would be driven into the dirt... The same is true of sex, that the price is what it is only because it is illegal... But at that, with porn, prostitution cheapens sex in the economy of marriage, where one gives to another exclusively and makes a sacrifice for the privilage... It is hardly fair for good women if every skank on the street is offering wares at a cut rate price and threatening her life with communicable diseases... People make a deal in marriage, and they should follow through, and what ever side deals they make is fine too... But sex without love is a form of violence, and it is unjust to self and other no matter what price is paid up front, and the willingness of some stupid drug addicted girl to be used and abused should not enter in to it, because that one deserves the protection of her society too, because if the truth is known, she is suffering from some mental illness or issue... We should sll be indignant, but not out of some ersatz morality; but for the real thing, a connection we have with all people, and with their pain...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 07:58 am
@Solmeci,
Solmeci wrote:

I believe the argument at its base is that it can be exploitative. For example Legalising it will allow the pimps and crims to bring in girls from other countries (usually tricked or forced) and whore them out and because it will then be legal at some level it will be harder (than it already is) to stop.

All we can use the whole religious and immoral argument and that it will damn your soul to hell for all eternity.

What is moral has everything to do with this life and nothing whatever to do with any life beyond this one..
0 Replies
 
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 03:41 pm
@Solmeci,
As plainoldme stated, human trafficking is already in effect whether people want to acknowledge it or not.

As for the whole religious/immoral argument I would love to hear the details of it if anyone can offer it.
0 Replies
 
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 03:55 pm
@PUNKEY,
When it comes to victimization of said providers, legal standardization of a business, with regulations and control of the scene, will deter such actions. Fundamentally, how is a brothel much different from a strip club?

And yes, the government will take its large share of profits through the use of permits/taxes on such a business as they would any other.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 04:39 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

snip

If there were no government regulations on the price of labor it would be driven into the dirt...

You can only support that viewpoint if no one is being paid more than state and federal minimum wages laws allow.

The same is true of sex, that the price is what it is only because it is illegal...

Part of the price of buying the service is the potential for arrest and public humiliation. Legalization might well enhance the price.

But at that, with porn, prostitution cheapens sex in the economy of marriage, where one gives to another exclusively and makes a sacrifice for the privilage... It is hardly fair for good women if every skank on the street is offering wares at a cut rate price and threatening her life with communicable diseases...

You are suggesting that marriage is somehow equivalant to prostitution!?[/[/color]quote]
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 07:18 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

Society has the right to protect itself from behavior likely to result in disease, disipation, or demoralization... It may seem like a harmless transaction, like buying porn, but if we do not understand the circumstances, and do not care we are doing some one an injustice, and are immoral for that... Most economic transactions grow out of unequal need and supply... One has what another wants and the one who wants is at a disadvantage, unless what one is selling, like labor one need to sell to suvive, and everyone is in the same boat... If there were no government regulations on the price of labor it would be driven into the dirt... The same is true of sex, that the price is what it is only because it is illegal... But at that, with porn, prostitution cheapens sex in the economy of marriage, where one gives to another exclusively and makes a sacrifice for the privilage... It is hardly fair for good women if every skank on the street is offering wares at a cut rate price and threatening her life with communicable diseases... People make a deal in marriage, and they should follow through, and what ever side deals they make is fine too... But sex without love is a form of violence, and it is unjust to self and other no matter what price is paid up front, and the willingness of some stupid drug addicted girl to be used and abused should not enter in to it, because that one deserves the protection of her society too, because if the truth is known, she is suffering from some mental illness or issue... We should sll be indignant, but not out of some ersatz morality; but for the real thing, a connection we have with all people, and with their pain...



I honestly don’t know where to begin with this reply, but I’ll try. First I’d like to point out that America has a divorce rate just over 50% (not to mention the marriages which are unhappily still together). However, your comment “sex without love is a form of violence” is plainly absurd. People have sex for any number of things; lust, revenge, spontaneous, pleasure, to name just a few.

As far as economics, I’m sure most people have a basic understanding of supply and demand to a degree. If it as you said, “prostitution cheapens sex in the economy of marriage”, then the marriage in itself is a sham and should not of been carried through in the first place. Because as you said, “marriage, where one gives to another exclusively and makes a sacrifice for the privilege”, then by that, the married would not partake in the purchase, thusly eliminating them from the equation (at least in a perfect world). Your contradictory argument and line of thought, or lake thereof, baffles me.

“If there were no government regulations on the price of labor it would be driven into the dirt”- Fido
Thus why legalization and regulations by the government is what is suggested.

“Society has the right to protect itself from behavior likely to result in disease, dissipation, or demoralization... It may seem like a harmless transaction, like buying porn, but if we do not understand the circumstances, and do not care we are doing some one an injustice”- Fido

If someone wanted to protect themselves from said disease, dissipation, demoralization they need only not to partake in the activities, much like not going to a strip club or purchasing porn. Once again people are trying to deny holding themselves responsible for their own lives/actions and instead are trying to govern everyone’s. If I wanted to go dress up like a horse and have a man break me like a bronco at some kind of sexcapade cowboy rodeo, who are you, or anyone, to deny me that?

All in all, it comes down to this, in my opinion, “There is no difference between good and evil, or right and wrong, there is only a difference in opinion.”
- Telamon


plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 07:40 pm
What is "the economy of marriage?"

While I am asking questions, why are the girls more severely punished than either the pimps or the johns?
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 07:56 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

What is "the economy of marriage?"

While I am asking questions, why are the girls more severely punished than either the pimps or the johns?


I honestly am not sure of that myself to be honest (I didn’t come up with it). My guess for as why the girls are being punished more than the others, is that it’s easier to pin the blame of the “crime” on them, since they were the ones carrying it out (and yes I understand not always by choice). In addition, by withhold and punishing the girl more, its one less provider on the street instead of one less buyer.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 08:03 pm
@Telamon,
I suspect that the girls are more frequently punished because of some lingering ideals of ladylike behavior and the fact that they are visible while the pimps aren't.
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 08:06 pm
@plainoldme,
Agreed, but we are getting off topic.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 10:45 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Fido wrote:

snip

Quote:
If there were no government regulations on the price of labor it would be driven into the dirt...

You can only support that viewpoint if no one is being paid more than state and federal minimum wages laws allow.[/color[/quote]]Some people will always be paid more even if wages are lower than whale ****... On the average, it is the protection of wages that the governemnt support which keep wages slightly above the const of living..

[quote]The same is true of sex, that the price is what it is only because it is illegal...

Part of the price of buying the service is the potential for arrest and public humiliation. Legalization might well enhance the price.
As if anyone is getting rich selling sex anywhere... It may seem exotic at first, but then it just becomes a job with no regular quiting time...Legislation would enhance the price by making it taxible... In fact, just like the minimum wage; it would not only keep wages high, but keeps them low as well,,,

Quote:
But at that, with porn, prostitution cheapens sex in the economy of marriage, where one gives to another exclusively and makes a sacrifice for the privilage... It is hardly fair for good women if every skank on the street is offering wares at a cut rate price and threatening her life with communicable diseases...

You are suggesting that marriage is somehow equivalant to prostitution!?[/[/color]quote]
Each contains a sexual relationship, but marriage is a social form built upon the moral form of love, and sex with a prostitute is a economic relationship built upon hatred of women... I have made a commitment for the sexual end of the marriage with my wife, and I have held to it... But that sex is an act of love... With prostitution, the act is not love but hate, and what is it called but Effing, one of our words for uncontroled violence...Say it: Eff you... Does that sound like making love??? It does not because it is not...People do not buy a wife for the ten minutes it takes them... They buy the intimacy of a person they have no reason to love, and do not love, and love does not enter into it...It is a finacial relationship founded on hatred because women are so elusive with their attention focused else where, on people with more money, better jobs, better educations... We cannot have the ones we want... But we can spew on them, use them, and abuse them all by turning one into an object, and one that can used and tossed an a creature of no consequences.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 10:54 pm
@Telamon,
Telamon wrote:

Fido wrote:

Society has the right to protect itself from behavior likely to result in disease, disipation, or demoralization... It may seem like a harmless transaction, like buying porn, but if we do not understand the circumstances, and do not care we are doing some one an injustice, and are immoral for that... Most economic transactions grow out of unequal need and supply... One has what another wants and the one who wants is at a disadvantage, unless what one is selling, like labor one need to sell to suvive, and everyone is in the same boat... If there were no government regulations on the price of labor it would be driven into the dirt... The same is true of sex, that the price is what it is only because it is illegal... But at that, with porn, prostitution cheapens sex in the economy of marriage, where one gives to another exclusively and makes a sacrifice for the privilage... It is hardly fair for good women if every skank on the street is offering wares at a cut rate price and threatening her life with communicable diseases... People make a deal in marriage, and they should follow through, and what ever side deals they make is fine too... But sex without love is a form of violence, and it is unjust to self and other no matter what price is paid up front, and the willingness of some stupid drug addicted girl to be used and abused should not enter in to it, because that one deserves the protection of her society too, because if the truth is known, she is suffering from some mental illness or issue... We should sll be indignant, but not out of some ersatz morality; but for the real thing, a connection we have with all people, and with their pain...



I honestly don’t know where to begin with this reply, but I’ll try. First I’d like to point out that America has a divorce rate just over 50% (not to mention the marriages which are unhappily still together). However, your comment “sex without love is a form of violence” is plainly absurd. People have sex for any number of things; lust, revenge, spontaneous, pleasure, to name just a few.

As far as economics, I’m sure most people have a basic understanding of supply and demand to a degree. If it as you said, “prostitution cheapens sex in the economy of marriage”, then the marriage in itself is a sham and should not of been carried through in the first place. Because as you said, “marriage, where one gives to another exclusively and makes a sacrifice for the privilege”, then by that, the married would not partake in the purchase, thusly eliminating them from the equation (at least in a perfect world). Your contradictory argument and line of thought, or lake thereof, baffles me.

“If there were no government regulations on the price of labor it would be driven into the dirt”- Fido
Thus why legalization and regulations by the government is what is suggested.

“Society has the right to protect itself from behavior likely to result in disease, dissipation, or demoralization... It may seem like a harmless transaction, like buying porn, but if we do not understand the circumstances, and do not care we are doing some one an injustice”- Fido

If someone wanted to protect themselves from said disease, dissipation, demoralization they need only not to partake in the activities, much like not going to a strip club or purchasing porn. Once again people are trying to deny holding themselves responsible for their own lives/actions and instead are trying to govern everyone’s. If I wanted to go dress up like a horse and have a man break me like a bronco at some kind of sexcapade cowboy rodeo, who are you, or anyone, to deny me that?

All in all, it comes down to this, in my opinion, “There is no difference between good and evil, or right and wrong, there is only a difference in opinion.”
- Telamon



It is not absurd... Sex without love is a form of violence... Look, there is intimacy without commitment, and there is touching without love...If not love, then what is it??? It is easy to say you are doing some one some good; but the fact is, that as one is being intimate they are letting down their guards, and people often carry the scars of fail intimacy... If you are at all sensitive, then you connect, and when you connect you feel another's pain... ,But if you can screw some one without the least sensitivity, making contact, and not for love; then you are doing violence...And it is for that reason that so many whores must also self medicate, because they endure hatred and injustice and violence... Love heals, but hate only injures...
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 11:16 pm
@Telamon,
Excellent question !
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2010 11:35 pm
Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world - it's legalized in most European countries and prostitutes are registered and required to have monthly health checks. I don't have statistics but I am almost certain that the number of rapes is far less in countries where prostitution is legalized.
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Aug, 2010 12:09 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

It is not absurd... Sex without love is a form of violence... Look, there is intimacy without commitment, and there is touching without love...If not love, then what is it??? It is easy to say you are doing some one some good; but the fact is, that as one is being intimate they are letting down their guards, and people often carry the scars of fail intimacy... If you are at all sensitive, then you connect, and when you connect you feel another's pain... ,But if you can screw some one without the least sensitivity, making contact, and not for love; then you are doing violence...And it is for that reason that so many whores must also self medicate, because they endure hatred and injustice and violence... Love heals, but hate only injures...


I don’t even want to try and touch this one, anyone else want to give it a try? Maybe we need to establish what “love” means per our discussion before we can proceed.

Love: “A profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person. A feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend. Affectionate concern for the well-being of others.”

I do not consider sexual desire without the above sentimentalities to be considered as “love” but rather lust; “intense sexual desire or appetite.” As for loveless sex being violent, please explain your logic for this example. How is prostitute “A” being treated with “rough or injurious physical/mental force, action, or treatment”, when said prostitute is both willing and wanting (for whatever reasons, most likely money) sex from an unknown and just met person, under her established conditions/rules? Please explain this in context to your response “But if you can screw some one without the least sensitivity, making contact, and not for love; then you are doing violence”.
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Aug, 2010 12:10 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world - it's legalized in most European countries and prostitutes are registered and required to have monthly health checks. I don't have statistics but I am almost certain that the number of rapes is far less in countries where prostitution is legalized.


You are correct in all assumptions.
0 Replies
 
 

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