Fido
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 09:03 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world - it's legalized in most European countries and prostitutes are registered and required to have monthly health checks. I don't have statistics but I am almost certain that the number of rapes is far less in countries where prostitution is legalized.

That is a profession for you... No licence, no degree, no ambition required; just enough self loathing to stand being addicted to drugs, and a willingness to have people use you for a toilet...

Oh ya, I'll bet the existence of legal rape for money cuts down on the illegal rapes... Why not consider how much of that goes on beneath the boards, impossible to see because of the blessing of legality on part of it, but as dependent as rape upon coercion, kidnapping, brutality, and injury... It is injustice, and the fact that some seem to be willing partners in their own injury is beside the point... What choice do they have??? Do you care, do you ask???Because it is obvious that with economic injustice, sexual injustice follows...Society is injure... The people are injured as slavery always injures free labor and free people... There is nothing white about white slavery...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 09:05 am
@Telamon,
Telamon wrote:

Fido wrote:

It is not absurd... Sex without love is a form of violence... Look, there is intimacy without commitment, and there is touching without love...If not love, then what is it??? It is easy to say you are doing some one some good; but the fact is, that as one is being intimate they are letting down their guards, and people often carry the scars of fail intimacy... If you are at all sensitive, then you connect, and when you connect you feel another's pain... ,But if you can screw some one without the least sensitivity, making contact, and not for love; then you are doing violence...And it is for that reason that so many whores must also self medicate, because they endure hatred and injustice and violence... Love heals, but hate only injures...

You may discover what love means within a certain group of people, but as an infinite, you will never define it, never be able to say what it is, or that it is... As a moral form, it exists as meaning...
I don’t even want to try and touch this one, anyone else want to give it a try? Maybe we need to establish what “love” means per our discussion before we can proceed.

Love: “A profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person. A feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend. Affectionate concern for the well-being of others.”

I do not consider sexual desire without the above sentimentalities to be considered as “love” but rather lust; “intense sexual desire or appetite.” As for loveless sex being violent, please explain your logic for this example. How is prostitute “A” being treated with “rough or injurious physical/mental force, action, or treatment”, when said prostitute is both willing and wanting (for whatever reasons, most likely money) sex from an unknown and just met person, under her established conditions/rules? Please explain this in context to your response “But if you can screw some one without the least sensitivity, making contact, and not for love; then you are doing violence”.

Fido
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 11:10 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

Telamon wrote:

Fido wrote:

It is not absurd... Sex without love is a form of violence... Look, there is intimacy without commitment, and there is touching without love...If not love, then what is it??? It is easy to say you are doing some one some good; but the fact is, that as one is being intimate they are letting down their guards, and people often carry the scars of fail intimacy... If you are at all sensitive, then you connect, and when you connect you feel another's pain... ,But if you can screw some one without the least sensitivity, making contact, and not for love; then you are doing violence...And it is for that reason that so many whores must also self medicate, because they endure hatred and injustice and violence... Love heals, but hate only injures...

You may discover what love means within a certain group of people, but as an infinite, you will never define it, never be able to say what it is, or that it is... As a moral form, it exists as meaning...
I don’t even want to try and touch this one, anyone else want to give it a try? Maybe we need to establish what “love” means per our discussion before we can proceed.

Quote:
Love: “A profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person. A feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend. Affectionate concern for the well-being of others.”

I do not consider sexual desire without the above sentimentalities to be considered as “love” but rather lust; “intense sexual desire or appetite.” As for loveless sex being violent, please explain your logic for this example. How is prostitute “A” being treated with “rough or injurious physical/mental force, action, or treatment”, when said prostitute is both willing and wanting (for whatever reasons, most likely money) sex from an unknown and just met person, under her established conditions/rules? Please explain this in context to your response “But if you can screw some one without the least sensitivity, making contact, and not for love; then you are doing violence”.



Well, I sort of screwed up the last post, and I hope this looks better, at least..

My point is that love is caring, and if it is sex without caring it is not love... So, if prostitution is sex without love, then what is it... What is 'not love'??? In fact it is sex without any of the virtues attached to it, very much the opposite of love and caring, somenthing people do as much out of self loathing as loathing for the other... And, speaking from experience of life, and though it may not be obvious at first when one has more strength than understanding, but intimacy is one of the most dangerous of situations anyone can be put in to... Not only is the person without armor, but also without honor... Their weaknesses as visible flaws are evident and exposed... For ones sight and nakedness is revealed our likeness to monkeys and our distance from gods...If what ever does not kill us makes us stronger, which age tells is false on its old face, the fact is that misplaced intimacy injures profoundly... If we cannot cure some one, or help them with our touch as is never the aim of prostitution, then to be fair, and just, we should leave them well enough alone... It does not matter that those who buy the wares of prostitutes need healing as well... They are sick and want to spread their disease...

They want to buy cheap what most people hold dear without admitting that it is dear, intimacy is dear because we all need it so... And when we touch we grow together in an instant, and to have that intimacy cut short is to have it ripped away like a scapb off a mile of road rash... It is not that people do not feel it.. They are there to not feel, but to do, and for a price to deliver a hurtful blow to the person, and self, and all of humanity... Intimacy is dear to people because we need it, but the selling of intimacy while it injures those involved also injures the whole economy of love... And it does... Intimacy is traded for a promise of commitment and mutual support... How should anyone view those who want to make a lie of a truth plainly stated???

Economy means house management, and the word is still in use in the original, Oikos, a brand of yogurt, their cottage cheece... We must all manage our housholds, and those who cheapen what we value highly, our honor and our virtue should expect contemely and harassment... If it were legal it would not be just, so it should not be legal..
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 11:37 am
Prostitution should remain illegal, since it goes against the "American Dream" of getting an education, getting a job, getting married, having a family, and perhaps, owning a house and car.

Prostitution is not what we would want to teach Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts to think is a positive endeavor, so it should not be made legal. It is just a parasitic phenomenon on society, in my opinion.

Since it is legalized in some European countries, I believe that is enough evidence that it is not good for America, since in my opinion, Europe is a cesspool of hypocritical behavior and beliefs.
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 12:27 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Since it is legalized in some European countries, I believe that is enough evidence that it is not good for America, since in my opinion, Europe is a cesspool of hypocritical behavior and beliefs.


You are so right, Foofie, and that's the reason why America is so pure and so
free of sexual exploitation of children and women. Sodom and Gomorrah everywhere but the United States.

Tell me, Foofie, when you wear your blinders so tight?
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 12:33 pm
@Fido,
What are you babbling along, Fido?

Remember Eliot Spitzer and his high priced prostitute? She did very well for herself and I am sure she's got more money and luxuries than you do. There are quite a few college students who finance their degrees with being "escorts" -
only a better description for prostitute.

You are blind (see Foofie) if you believe that the United States is free of prostitution. It is called the "oldest profession in the world" as it truly is,
even the medieval times have had concubines. You don't know this because
the U.S. is only 200 some years old and some of you are too blind to admit it.

Legal rape? Rape has never been legal, what the hell are you talking about?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 01:46 pm
@CalamityJane,
I'm still chewing on that "legal rape for money", too.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 02:06 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Prostitution should remain illegal, since it goes against the "American Dream" of getting an education, getting a job, getting married, having a family, and perhaps, owning a house and car.

Prostitution is not what we would want to teach Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts to think is a positive endeavor, so it should not be made legal. It is just a parasitic phenomenon on society, in my opinion.

Since it is legalized in some European countries, I believe that is enough evidence that it is not good for America, since in my opinion, Europe is a cesspool of hypocritical behavior and beliefs.

It should remain illegal because it is a positive injury to society and individual... If society does not protect its individuals from behavior that is immoral because it ultimately injure the life of soceity, then it and individuals both must suffer those effects... I know it is natural that where people are forced to sell their labor because there is no alternative, and this is made legal because those who make the laws profit from it, that the ultimate will be slavery, white and chattel, because the end of selling our rights to what we produce for a pittance can only end with our selling all our rights for a pot of porrage... It is not only prostitution which is unjust, but all selling of labor, or selling of anything into a fixed market... No society benfits from injustice... The rich benefit from all our suffering until we are too weak to defend ourselves, and then we die, or we finish off the society so we can live... There is no choice...People never revolt because they have a choice, but out of want of choice.
roger
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 02:20 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:


It should remain illegal because it is a positive injury to society and individual... If society does not protect its individuals from behavior that is immoral because it ultimately injure the life of soceity, then it and individuals both must suffer those effects...


Somehow, I get the feeling you are saying it's an injury to society because it's immoral, and it's immoral because it's an injury to society. Even assuming it's moral to apply your morals to the rest of society, this just has to sound a little circular.
Telamon
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 03:39 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Somehow, I get the feeling you are saying it's an injury to society because it's immoral, and it's immoral because it's an injury to society. Even assuming it's moral to apply your morals to the rest of society, this just has to sound a little circular.

It’s not a little circular, it’s a full blown perfect circle. Maybe he wants us to get so confused we concede all arguments.
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 06:53 pm
@Telamon,
You cannot argue with ignorant people anyway, Telamon.
Fido and Foofie don't realize that the biggest porn industry is sitting right
among them in the United States and that prostitution is well and alive, despite
the moral and legal implications.

You can't help people who never looked over their own little horizon, and
never left town to explore other cultures.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 05:51 am
@roger,
roger wrote:

Fido wrote:


It should remain illegal because it is a positive injury to society and individual... If society does not protect its individuals from behavior that is immoral because it ultimately injure the life of soceity, then it and individuals both must suffer those effects...


Somehow, I get the feeling you are saying it's an injury to society because it's immoral, and it's immoral because it's an injury to society. Even assuming it's moral to apply your morals to the rest of society, this just has to sound a little circular.

Morals are best undertood by the word Morale, which is the spiritual health of a body as opposed to physic, or the physical health... Some behavior is bad for morale, and anything that glosses over injustice is bad for morale... There is a reason murder is both illegal and immoral... When some one kills, another is killed and no one in society has the power to make society whole; so the object is, before hand, to teach that murder is wrong, immoral, which is to say: an injury to the spirit which binds us as a community... All governments are formed for good, said Aristotle, because that is the aim of all human activity... Obvious fact, but also keen observation since so much that we do is for our own perceived good, and that puts us at odds with other seeking their own benefit... For the moralist the question always comes up: What is the good of it???

Every choice we make is a moral choice, and for every individual action there are consequences for the whole of society... It is one thing to look at a prostitute as frozen in time, and to judge the individual act by its simple consequence, which may be minimal... That is not life, and not how things happen... Just as morals consider the spiritual life of the community, it must beconsidered as a thing, hopefully, eternal... So all activity must be viewed at minimum, cereally... What brought that girl to the point of being a prostitute???Who justifies her situation??? Who preys upon her and forces her continued behavior??? Who purchases her affection, and what are the long term consequences, and the short term consequences??? What good does it do for individuals and society???...

We can point to certain injury from the existence of prostitution, and we can presume much injury with resonable evidence... Drugs and prostitution are endemic in the city, but aids, one of the diseases common to prostitution and drug use left the city and moved to the country on the dicks of truckers to divestate many rural families, and burden failing health care systems... Many years ago the situation was the same with syphilus and gonorrea, so that society demanded the disease be stopped at its source, and these diseases are not cured, but are making a resurgence...The question of where is the good is easily answered in regard to prostitution...

There is no good to it...It flows out of injustice, and it spreads disease...Its injury goes to the heart of society and to the moral condition of the individual.... Should we put a price on everything in the whole world as capitalism does, then some things to some people would seem worthless because they are priceless... There will always be young people without skills or intelligence to support themselves at labor... These people should not be thrown into the trash of society to be abused and exploited by anyone with the desire; but should be protected... We can afford to help such people get by... We cannot afford prostitution...It is demoralizing...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 06:01 am
@Telamon,
Telamon wrote:

roger wrote:

Somehow, I get the feeling you are saying it's an injury to society because it's immoral, and it's immoral because it's an injury to society. Even assuming it's moral to apply your morals to the rest of society, this just has to sound a little circular.

It’s not a little circular, it’s a full blown perfect circle. Maybe he wants us to get so confused we concede all arguments.

Morality is community, is concerned with the spirit and life of community, and nothing can injure anyone, or society and still be moral... Societies must defend themselves from enemies who would injure from without, and the ignorant or abusive who would injure society from within... Yes, we used to believe that our gods would judge our communities, all together, and cause each to suffer for the sins of the few... If we can say we know better, believing differently of God, then we can correctly say that what goes around comes around..

We all suffer the injustice we defend for others... If we do not realize that fact, and defend ourselves collectively from injury we will be destroyed, but not by god, but because we have weakened ourselves before those who are moral, and want only all we have for their community... Immorality is the destruction of societies... Morality is community, and survival, forever, is the goal of community... To reach that goal, no community will bear injustice from without or within...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 06:07 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

You cannot argue with ignorant people anyway, Telamon.
Fido and Foofie don't realize that the biggest porn industry is sitting right
among them in the United States and that prostitution is well and alive, despite
the moral and legal implications.

You can't help people who never looked over their own little horizon, and
never left town to explore other cultures.


I realize what you say is true, and I ask the question: What good is it??? I am not justifying the smallest part of injustice... I do not justify any dishonor to any individual that is not the result of ones own conduct freely engaged in... And there are many people who sit at the top of society who should be driven into a desert because they are criminals even if they decide the law and make it... Anything which injures society should be strictly illegal... The only question is: Who is the injured party; because we have some crimes for which no specific victim can be found except in the prosecution of the crime...Prostitution is not an example of that sort... Neither is porn... We are all hurt by it...
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:18 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Since it is legalized in some European countries, I believe that is enough evidence that it is not good for America, since in my opinion, Europe is a cesspool of hypocritical behavior and beliefs.


You are so right, Foofie, and that's the reason why America is so pure and so
free of sexual exploitation of children and women. Sodom and Gomorrah everywhere but the United States.

Tell me, Foofie, when you wear your blinders so tight?


So, your sarcastic comment above would not lead to a logical conclusion that "two wrongs make a right."

The inherent problem with prostitution being legal is that, in my opinion, prostitution reflects that our society has lost its proverbial compass whereby men were put on this Earth to protect women, not exploit them, or utilize them in a capitalistic manner with prostitution.

Since few caring parents, in my opinion, would want his/her daughter to grow up and become a prostitute, I think the profession should be eliminated from one's list of desirable employment, that society should promulgate (and legalizing it would be promulgating it).

Prostitution just reflects an exploitative relationship between males and females, in my Judeo-American opinion. Not good for society's future.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:24 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

You cannot argue with ignorant people anyway, Telamon.
Fido and Foofie don't realize that the biggest porn industry is sitting right
among them in the United States and that prostitution is well and alive, despite
the moral and legal implications.

You can't help people who never looked over their own little horizon, and
never left town to explore other cultures.


Since married men are known to frequent prostitutes, then if society legalized prostitution, society would be facilitating some males from breaking their marriage vows. Since the civil authorities have gotten into the business of officiating over marriage licenses (at one time it was only religions, I believe), i.e., "marriage vows," then it would be counter-productive for the civil authorities to legalize something that would help trivialize that which they officiated over ("marriage vows").
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 01:32 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

CalamityJane wrote:

You cannot argue with ignorant people anyway, Telamon.
Fido and Foofie don't realize that the biggest porn industry is sitting right
among them in the United States and that prostitution is well and alive, despite
the moral and legal implications.

You can't help people who never looked over their own little horizon, and
never left town to explore other cultures.


Since married men are known to frequent prostitutes, then if society legalized prostitution, society would be facilitating some males from breaking their marriage vows. Since the civil authorities have gotten into the business of officiating over marriage licenses (at one time it was only religions, I believe), i.e., "marriage vows," then it would be counter-productive for the civil authorities to legalize something that would help trivialize that which they officiated over ("marriage vows").

The problem is that the wealthy and powerful have never had any faith, and have always had their slaves, concubines, kept women and prostitutes... It is part of the democratic process that what is good for the rich is seen as good for the poor... Were the wealthy and powerful not always ruining themselves with their immorality there would be absolutly no upward mobility... But, that faithlessness when practiced by the poor is even more ruinous...Where is the advertizement for it??? Where is the pension plan for old whores??? Where is the whores union??? The closest thing we have is hollywood or Congress... There, money rules all behaviors and reckons all relationships, and the practicioners of the trade only seek to become efers instead of efeees..
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:04 pm
@Fido,
Oh where do I begin ....
I said earlier that you have to look over your own little horizon to understand
others, apparently this is something you have a hard time with.

Fido, not every man has a wife, girlfriend or a friend with benefits to get his sexual relief and precisely for these men there should be an option to seek the
services of a prostitute. I know, you'll throw in masturbation (if it's not a sin within your puritan views), but it's just not the same. There are two consenting adults engaging in a contract where one is providing a service and the other one is paying.

You'll find prostitution in just about every American town, no matter how large or small, and despite being illegal, it thrives just as well as in other countries where it is legalized. The only difference is, that with illegal prostitution you also have the element of crime, violence and disease .

Where prostitution is legalized, the ladies of the night receive their "Johns" in brothels, or "Eros centers" as they're called in Europe. The conditions are much more sanitary, safe for both parties involved, and definitely less violent. Prostitutes are registered, have regular health exams and are protected from either violent pimps and/or violent customers.

You see, Fido, you never can stop prostitution, it will always be with us, no matter if it's illegal or legal.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:13 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie,
it seems you just celebrated your 100th birthday since you definitely still live in
those times. You say "men were put on earth to protect women" so why the hell don't they? Why is there so much crime against women by men, Foofie? Care to explain that one?

I don't think any parent of a daughter would like to see her become a prostitute,
nor see their son become a pimp. Due to whatever circumstances, women become either high priced hookers or low paid prostitutes. To assume, that in countries where prostitution is legalized, society is less educated and less refined, is just something that has grown in your own Judeo-American head.

By the way, your fellow Judeo American, Eliot Spitzer does not share your sentiments.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 09:23 pm
@Foofie,
I don't know the statistics on married men vs. single men frequenting prostitutes,
but if you're referring to marriage vows, I almost guarantee you that they're more often broken without the involvement of any prostitutes. If you'd only
read the topics here at a2k from people seeking advise concerning extramarital affairs.

I actually believe that married men - if they seek out a prostitute, do so for
having an absent sex life at home for whatever reason that might be and they're just seeking sexual relief without getting emotionally involved. The majority of "customers" in my opinion, are single men of all ages, including teenage
boys.
 

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