Fido
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 06:31 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

I don't know the statistics on married men vs. single men frequenting prostitutes,
but if you're referring to marriage vows, I almost guarantee you that they're more often broken without the involvement of any prostitutes. If you'd only
read the topics here at a2k from people seeking advise concerning extramarital affairs.

I actually believe that married men - if they seek out a prostitute, do so for
having an absent sex life at home for whatever reason that might be and they're just seeking sexual relief without getting emotionally involved. The majority of "customers" in my opinion, are single men of all ages, including teenage
boys.


To say the want sexual relief without emotional involvement, is suggesting the impossible is possible... I think what they want is intimacy without obligation, and that too is impossible, but people desire it out of an inner cruelty, a desire to cause pain so strong that they will endure what they inflict... Intimacy is painful... For a human beings intimacy is painful because when we bond we take up the pain of others... We care, and caring is our natural state in regard to other human beings... To turn sexual intimacy into a financial relationship is a denial of caring for ourselves and others, and it is a denial of our own life force and will... We surrender to death, and we give into fear and violence, and we actually go over to the far side, and celebrate our own human tragedy...I have touched my own nerves here, because I have never been just in sexual matters, and I have used many for my pleasure once, and for the pain I feel forever...
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 08:12 am
I've been watching this thread for a while and am hesitant to jump in. The reason: This is an issue with many effects, numerous side-issues and a lot of mis-information and stereotyping. I also realize that if I cover these - at all - 99% of would-be readers will have their eyes gloss over after the 2nd line. Such as things are, here's my take.

Fido actually has several excellent points, but he's up against a very basic misconception about prostitution. Please be patient as I try to navigate the minefield of what I believe this misconception is: While I think most of us would agree that an informed adult (who has a full range of options in life and is under no duress) should be allowed to do with their bodies what they please, the problem with prostitution is that this "ideal situation" is exceedingly, extremely and unbelievably-rare. The reality of prostitution - worldwide - is that the vast-majority of it is a result of slavery, kidnapping or intolerable situations where one must compromise themselves in order to make money (a situation; again, I think most of us would agree isn't good).

Again, this has many aspects that need to be considered. Here are some of the more salient interactions:

  • Only in relatively-few cases does one choose prostitution where they have other choices. I've seen worldwide statistics that place this as high as 98%; however all sources admit accurate figures are hard to come by. By all accounts, the overwhelming number of prostitutes worldwide were either given no choice, or a choice of but one alternative.

  • If someone makes the choice to sell their bodies for others, absolute respect for their decision is in order unless it infringes upon basic respect for similar rights in others. Yes, I believe this extends to suicide, self mutilation and other such self-destructive acts. It is wrong for anyone to infringe upon other's rights to do with their bodies what they choose (except as stipulated). Again, this is the vast minority as far as prostitution is concerned.

  • When one must, in order to survive, sell their bodies as "things"; the situation is both destructive and unethical on numerous levels. PTSD and mind/body dis associative neurosis are common because of the deep personal violation one is enduring to feed themselves.

  • I have an emotional reaction the commodification of sexuality. Its based on my personal values that I can't impose or have applied to others. In short, I believe sexuality taps into basic drives, instinctual behaviors and bonds that have served to strengthen our species. Selling them - becoming numb to these dynamics - has its price.

  • The sister-issues of poverty, overpopulation and pursuit of material goods all have a huge effect on prostitution; both in its proliferation and ill-effects. More than anything, I believe most injustice done in connection with prostitution has its genesis in these issues. Almost so much so, that one could say prostitution's damage is more a symptom of other, broader issues than an innately-problematic transaction in itself when under a non-coercive situation.

  • Throughout the eons, humanity has proven that it cares not whether or not prostitution is illegal; its going to happen, regardless. Thus far, it hasn't been stoppable via law-making. Wherever conditions necessitates selling yourself for sex, that's what takes place.

  • Remember, though, there's the customer as well as the provider. Customer's money provides the motivation for would-be traffickers, slavers and pimps to go to the lengths they do. The economic conditions that make prostitution seriously considered interact with the desires of the traffickers to produce a dangerous dynamic and intolerable condition.

  • As humans become more abundant, they'll continue to be devalued by some. Again, we've been taught over and over that many have absolutely no regard for the health, welfare or basic respects that I believe are owed. This won't change and indeed, is likely to become more common as resources continue to become scarce while human reproduction continues unchecked.

  • While ones choice to do with their bodies must, in my opinion, be almost without question, prostitution undoubtedly does more harm than good. History's taught us that making it illegal doesn't stop it, yet virtually every bit of research I could find from studies and field experts agree that legalization would actually increase it. Perhaps if one could absolutely enforce its prohibition, this could be our cure. However, if it were possible to absolutely-enforce its prohibition, what of those who DO have choices and voluntarily choose this line of work?

All told and as things are: Prostitution is a netting terrible effects on humanity (worldwide). For those that agree this situation is intolerable, there are only three things I believe will have a positive effect:
  1. Work to remove the conditions that push people towards prostitution as a way of supporting themselves.

  2. Ruthlessly pursue those who'd make a buck off someone else's desperation.

  3. Remove and dispel the notion that the effects of prostitution are the prostitute's own fault. Those who shrug with "it was her choice" simply don't know the facts and have an almost psychotic lack of compassion. And again: while there do exist prostitutes out there who DO consciously and intelligently make this choice, the grossly-overwhelming majority don't.

The evidence is everywhere. Legalization could only make a difference if it were absolutely and successfully controlled - which, as we've seen, is as likely to fail as prohibition has been.

Again, for those Gen X & Y folks with short attention spans, apologies for the length. I just believe this issue has too many relevant sides to over simplify.

Thanks
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 08:18 am
@Khethil,
Excellent post.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 09:07 am

As a freedom-loving libertarian, I wanna stand up against
any laws against ladies of the evening, or sexual services for sale.

I don 't see that anyone (including government) has authority to interfere with that
(except a spouse, who possibly might allege a monopoly, by contract).





David
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 10:09 am
@Khethil,
Khethil,
you said so little with so much. There is no denying that prostitution is here to stay, it always has and always will, only a fool is to believe that it will subside with more stringent legal venues. There is also no denying that given the choice, no hooker would chose this path for herself, due to whatever circumstances she has become a prostitute. This is not the issue here, however - the question was: why illegal?

Your assumption that legalized prostitution would increase the number of prostitutes is not only unfounded it is also proven wrong. There are many many countries around the world where prostitution is legalized; neither the number increased proportionally, nor did Sodom and Gomorrah take over. Red light districts in the Netherlands or Germany are a very good example for it. Another good example is that in those countries where prostitution is legalized, crimes against women, especially violent rape, is only a small fraction compared to the United States and this, dear Khethil, is my main
purpose for being an proponent of legalized prostitution: sexual assault, rape and other violent crimes against women decrease considerably.

If you, Foofie and Fido are personally against ever visiting a hooker, that's
your prerogative. To impose your moral and religious views onto the entire
population is just a tad presumptuous.

America always rides on the wave of moral standards and puritan laws, however, there is no other country in the civilized world whose statistics in pornography, pedophile, rape and other violent crimes surpasses the United States. I wonder why ?
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 10:40 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:
Your assumption that legalized prostitution would increase the number of prostitutes is not only unfounded it is also proven wrong.

I made no such assumption. What I said was that of the sources and research I've looked around at (quite a few), most "experts" seem to think it would. I make no claim to absolute knowledge or predicting the future.

CalamityJane wrote:
If you, Foofie and Fido are personally against ever visiting a hooker, that's your prerogative. To impose your moral and religious views onto the entire population is just a tad presumptuous.

I'm guessing you didn't really read what I posted.
  • Although I haven't, I've no qualms about visiting a hooker; where she's not been forced into the situation with no other choice.

  • I have no religious views - at all, actually

  • Again, I made no presumptions.

I believe prostitution, as is in the world today, is a painful source of much pain and death. For those who by choice and with choices - choose it; More power to them! My only concern is those for whom this isn't the case and end up suffering.

CalamityJane wrote:
America always rides on the wave of moral standards and puritan laws, however, there is no other country in the civilized world whose statistics in pornography, pedophile, rape and other violent crimes surpasses the United States. I wonder why ?

Well, you'll get no argument from me. But I believe the "Why" has to do with our sickened culture of commodification and materialism. Combined with self-imposed mental and psychological isolation its actually become one of the most backwards "civilized" countries in the world. I make this judgment based on my years away from it where the years plus new experiences taught me just how backwards we are. I've given up on the U.S. population; what it needs, its culture and values doesn't provide: Perspective.

Thanks
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 11:27 am
@Khethil,
Our bodies are not our own... Our lives are not our own... We have a natural, and organic relationship with all people, but primarily with parents and community... We are not created as metaphysics would have it, but made out of the same life as was given our parents before us, and with our lives we are honor bound to not attack the life that gave us life as our nations and communities are...

Look in the history of lituerature, the two primary antiheroes who yet provide the model to all our antiheroes were both paricides, and this is the most ungrateful and immoral of acts... Look at those who commited those crimes...Oedipus, said: I did what I did not knowing what I did... Orestes said god made me do it.... We can say like Oedipus that we use prostitutes out of ignorance of the pain and injury it causes, but ignorance is no excuse for an act that society informs us out of its cultural experience- is bad, and immoral... If we cannot see the damage of the situation we are not looking...People are forever hurt by intimacy when love is the driving force behind it, so what should we expect where love is absent???
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 12:02 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
Our bodies are not our own...
I dispute that; I challenge u to prove it.


Fido wrote:
Our lives are not our own...
I dispute that; I challenge u to prove it.


Fido wrote:
We have a natural, and organic relationship with all people,
Whether that is so, or not,
is does not undermine nor limit our property rights in our lives
nor in our human bodies.



Fido wrote:
If we cannot see the damage of the situation we are not looking...
People are forever hurt by intimacy when love is the driving force behind it,
so what should we expect where love is absent???
I deny your allegation. I 'm very skeptical
of your reasoning (whatever that may be; it is not clear).
I have never seen any "damage".
When I have been approached by ladies of the evening,
whose offers of service I have accepted, there was NO INDICATION
of ANY unhappiness in them whatsoever.

To the CONTRARY, when I was approached in Las Vegas
in a casino, by a lady of the evening, she was very disappointed,
frustrated and saddened when I told her truthfully, that I had checked out
of the hotel, no longer had a room, and had to leave for the airport momentarily,
to return home to NY. She WANTED me to be her customer.

I don t think that any girl woud pay a nickel to have sex with ME,
and I have always had more than enuf $$$, but IN THEORY,
if I had been approached by a sufficiently attractive customer
with cash, I 'd have been very happy to do it.

I will add that I have never had any lack of respect,
nor any pity for ladies of the evening. Thay r as honorable
as anyone else in the work force.

What u wrote was inconsistent with fact and with reasoning, Fido.





David
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 12:43 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
I make this judgment based on my years away from it where the years plus new experiences taught me just how backwards we are. I've given up on the U.S. population; what it needs, its culture and values doesn't provide: Perspective.Thanks


I agree completely here and you are so right with this statement!
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 07:43 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Khethil wrote:
I make this judgment based on my years away from it where the years plus new experiences taught me just how backwards we are. I've given up on the U.S. population; what it needs, its culture and values doesn't provide: Perspective.Thanks


I agree completely here and you are so right with this statement!


I think that the U.S. being a nation with one federal government confuses people into thinking that the U.S. is one society. Being a land mass of 3,000 miles from coast to coast, it is as big as three Europes, and has several societies, and sub-cultures within it. A matrix of sorts that much smaller nations in Europe cannot "house."

So, if one is a bible believing Christian, for example, or a member of some other segment of society, one can live in a world that avoids much of the dangers of the "popular culture." And, that includes the standard "street smarts" to be home early and tucked into bed!

Plus, there are still small towns dotting the nation that are like the proverbial Mayberry of Andy Griffith fame. Mostly Protestant I know, but let us not condemn a world, just because we are not members of those small reclusive/insular towns.

Anyway, what other nation would have effected the Berlin Airlift six years after defeating Germany as an enemy? Regardless of the U.S. opposing Communism. Or, for that matter, while Germany had plans to turn Eastern Europe into large plantations, to feed the Fatherland, with ethnic Germans as the population (how much unused Zyclon-B was found at the end of the war), the U.S. did not "vanquish" its prior enemies. I guess that mindset should not be criticized.

Anyway, the fact that the U.S. is 300 + million inhabitants, puts it into some other category that cannot be compared to Europe. Europe is just a hodge podge of nations that, in my opinion, are pretending to like each other, now that we are in a nuclear age.

But, while criticizing the U.S. society, why not mention the good things like no one is telling Moslem girls that their heads cannot be covered in school. Or, that American males and females join the military for a career, since someone has to do it, since the days of hiring Hessians are over. Allowing much of Europe to put their energies into consumer goods production, rather than military spending.

I have said my piece. Much of my perspective reflects that I do not want to view myself as an ingrate to this country, for myself, and my family since the late nineteenth century.

Lastly, prostitution will remain illegal, because women who are married do not want it legalized, in my opinion. Another interesting thing about the U.S., some women have more influence than just the one vote all citizens get, and they have not been brain washed like many European women to think men must "get a little strange" now and then to be happy.

0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Aug, 2010 10:19 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

[quote]Fido wrote:
Our bodies are not our own...
I dispute that; I challenge u to prove it.
How owuld I go about proving something like that??? I am only saying wht the facts suggest... While you may do most of what you like so long as it is moral, some one will step in if it is not... You cannot even commit suicide without some one getting all irate... If it is your body, then what is their concern??? And what if you want to pump drugs into your body, and you say: This is my body, and I am going to do these drugs till I die or puke...I think you would find your body the property of another in very short order...


Quote:
Fido wrote:
Our lives are not our own...
I dispute that; I challenge u to prove it.

I do not expect to prove it, but hope you can agree that all that is necessary to own a person's life, and extinguish it, is to own their rights... The whole process leading up to the execution of a prisoner does not deprive him of his health or peace of mind; but takes his rights, because without rights his death has no meaning and is not murder...People go to war on slight evidence of need...If told to, a soldier will stand his ground and fight to the last extreme, and he can only be given such an order is his life is already owned... People often give their lives in defense of others, or to save others, and why would anyone do such a thing if they did not already know their communities had claim upon them???


Fido wrote:
We have a natural, and organic relationship with all people,
Whether that is so, or not,
is does not undermine nor limit our property rights in our lives
nor in our human bodies.
Our lives are not property, for property has properties... Life cannot even be described as a property, for life is not a property of corpses, nor is it a property of living people, but is them...Life cannot be described to the point of definition because it is an infinite...We cannot say what life is, but we can say where we got it, and we know who to thank for it, and if we are honest, we will admit that we are born with certain obligations to family and society...



Fido wrote:
If we cannot see the damage of the situation we are not looking...
People are forever hurt by intimacy when love is the driving force behind it,
so what should we expect where love is absent???
I deny your allegation. I 'm very skeptical
of your reasoning (whatever that may be; it is not clear).
I have never seen any "damage".
When I have been approached by ladies of the evening,
whose offers of service I have accepted, there was NO INDICATION
of ANY unhappiness in them whatsoever.

To the CONTRARY, when I was approached in Las Vegas
in a casino, by a lady of the evening, she was very disappointed,
frustrated and saddened when I told her truthfully, that I had checked out
of the hotel, no longer had a room, and had to leave for the airport momentarily,
to return home to NY. She WANTED me to be her customer.

I don t think that any girl woud pay a nickel to have sex with ME,
and I have always had more than enuf $$$, but IN THEORY,
if I had been approached by a sufficiently attractive customer
with cash, I 'd have been very happy to do it.

I will add that I have never had any lack of respect,
nor any pity for ladies of the evening. Thay r as honorable
as anyone else in the work force.

What u wrote was inconsistent with fact and with reasoning, Fido.





David
[/quote]
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2010 12:33 am
@Fido,
Fido, your writing is rife with confusion.
I hardly know where to begin
to straighten it out.





David
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2010 01:49 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Fido, your writing is rife with confusion.
I hardly know where to begin
to straighten it out.

David

A mutual feeling of most it seems…
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2010 09:26 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Fido, your writing is rife with confusion.
I hardly know where to begin
to straighten it out.





David

It just goes to show that no one can describe a shift of paradigm... Either you get it or you do not... If I come off as confused; I am not...If you do not want to see what I am getting at I am not responsible... We have them here who say there has always been prostitution so there will always be prostitution... Acceptance is all the blessing fate needs to rule our lives... I do not accept it...Certainly, sex has always been an article of commerce... Sex has sealed many a bargain and peace treaty...Sex is a part of every economy of marriage... It is a way of settling debts and evening scores...The difference between sex in marriage and sex in commerce is this: Marriage is a long term social form and contract, and prostitution is not... I do not want to discount the personal failures and defects that might result in sexual commerce, because to do so would be to ideolize women out of their humanity...My problem and your problem is to see the whole issue, and in regard to white slavery as with Chattel slavery, it is the middle men, the pimps, the drug dealers, the gangsters, even landlords, and bankers who profit with every exchange... Certainly, all the people who do not visit prostitutes risk injury to themselves and loved ones from the actions of prostitutes... But what it says of women, no man should hear without protest: That they, women, are objects who can be made to suffer any indignity for a price...Prostitution demans all women when that meaning is the very thing we all get buy on...

Prostitution is an act of contempt... And self contempt....And what men do to women for a price justifies all that is done to men for a price... It is not prostitution that resembles working, but working that resembles prostitution...Look at how much of our labor is for nothing, no gain, no honor, and no product...When we grunt and give up our lives for a pittance, no one benefits, and even the buyer of our labor is degraded, just as every man is degraded who uses prostitutes... We do not help ourselves or humanity with prostitution...All of society is hurt..
0 Replies
 
 

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