The End of Men

I can fully understand that - I have an adversion to cooties as well.

And I think hawkeye has cooties - one of the side effects is not being able to make a determination between reality and fantasy.

Well we still need men to open certain stubborn jars.

I'm watching Star Trek Deep Space Nine on the tube, after that I have to install some new light fixtures as per Mrs. Chumly; is there anything else I should concern myself with?

Because I did encounter gender discrimination early on in my career, and know what it's like to be held back or constrained simply on the basis of your gender, I find Hawkeye's current whining about male victimization quite annoying.

Hawkeye really doesn't like women. I don't know whether he hates them, but he certainly sees them as an evil force in society--power mad, vindictive, emasculating, conspiratorial, holding men in chains wherever you look.Presumably this also applies to the women who surround him in his personal world as well. He can't wait to escape their company and retreat to the sanctuary of all male buddy groups or his own private fantasy world of "masculinity" that he finds in video gaming (and probably pornography). Hawkeye never says anything positive about women. He sees half the population of the world as his adversaries.

And now Hawkeye is trying to suggest that what is true for him is true for all men. They are all being victimized by women. And, if you don't believe him, you are a fool who hasn't seen the truth yet. You need Hawkeye to enlighten you. You see, Hawkeye doesn't even give other men credit for having brains.

Where is the evidence that men are being held back in terms of education or employment opportunities by women? Where is any evidence that men are, in fact, falling behind? Have women taken over all the schools, universities, and businesses and barred entry to men or kept them from advancing?

In reality, the only social power that women have is the power of the vote. Last I heard, men still have it too. So, what is all this whimpering about? The only thing in reality that women have gotten, after considerable struggle, is the vote and civil rights laws that bar outright discrimination by gender.

It was partly the events of history that account for changes in gender roles. During World War II women were pressed into the labor force while men were off to war. They proved they were capable outside the home, demonstrated their value in the larger society, and some of them found they actually liked working. So, gradually, throughout the next two decades, women began questioning why they should be relegated only to kitchens and bedrooms, why their goals in college should be limited to finding a husband and settling down, and why their choices and options shouldn't be as unrestricted as those for men. And an increasing divorce rate left more women on their own, and earning a decent income became imperative.

That's apparently when Hawkeye's idealized world began falling apart. Women didn't want to stay in their place anymore, they were asserting their own needs, and their own opinions, and that began cramping his style. They were infringing on his power, and the power of all men, to control things, in their own way. Women were demanding input, they wanted their say in things. Hawkeye, unable to really listen, or empathize, or understand what they were saying, decided that they were out to seek vengeance for what had been done to them by subjugating and hammering, and "feminizing" men. He couldn't fathom what women wanted, or how it would make life better for everyone, because all he felt was his "masculinity" being eroded. He was Samson, and all women were coming at him with shears in their hands.

Most men, and women, have adapted rather well to the expansions of their gender roles. It's been liberating for everyone. Both men and women are freer to express themselves. It's all right for men to cry, and it's all right for women to get tough. We don't have to fake or deny aspects of our human natures any more. We can just be. We can just be people. And most of us enjoy that. But, not Hawkeye. He still thinks women are trying to turn him into an "it" and he's prepared to keep fighting this tide tooth and nail. He wants to be free of women and their annoying demands. He doesn't care that most men now share the goals of women, for true equality for everyone, he thinks those guys are all "girlie men".

So, not only is Hawkeye not on the same wave length as women, he's not on the same wave length as most men, the ones who really enjoy women and see them as helpmates and playmates and very important equal partners in their life. So he berates everyone, both male and female posters, while he postures and whines about male victimization in thread after thread on the A2K boards, constantly reminding us that he is winning his arguments, despite the fact that no such thing is happening, and that the majority of other posters aren't even agreeing with him. According to Hawkeye, he is seeking "justice", justice for the male victims of female wrath, the male victims of the female power grab. He sounds more like someone who has just been through a horrible divorce and custody battle, and feels like he has been shafted, and must now warn all men that they must avoid marriage to any woman, even a "marriage" that's simply a meeting of the minds.

I'm sick of hearing women, all women, demonized. I'm sick of Hawkeye's pity parties. Is all this whining his idea of "masculinity? If he were that concerned about the issues he obsesses about, he'd be out in the real world doing something about them, not bitching on A2K threads.

He has some serious hang ups. Or maybe it is cooties...

I can speak for myself, your pretending that I can't is indicative of your lack of respect for men. If you were a better person you would speak for yourself, how you feel about me, you would not attempt to speak for me, You would not attempt to convince others that they should think as you do, nor would you make broad assumptions of who I am and what I want when you in fact know next to nothing about me.

Other's may or may not see though your attempts at manipulation of the perception of them towards Hawkeye...if people do fall for your third rate manipulation techniques then they are to be pitied. You certainly are, for between the two of us you come off here much closer to being a garden variety hater. The entire above post contains very little content other than the projection of hate.

That entire post is how I see you, my opinion of you, based on what I have heard you say over, and over and over again in thread after thread. What on earth do you think it is?



I'm not trying to manipulate anyone's perception of you. I give people around here credit that they can think for themselves and draw their own conclusions. Those are my perceptions, and my conclusions.

You see all women as maliciously manipulative. That is what you rant about all the time. Whether it is in this thread, where you assert that men are falling behind because women must obviously be doing something to them, or the rape thread where you rant about women hammering men with abominable, unfair sex laws, you see women as injurious to men. It's always the same attitude.

So, I'm not surprised you see me as manipulative. Actually I'm rather straightforward in saying what I think.

I don't hate you at all. You don't excite the sort of emotion in me that leads to hate. Your male victim crusades don't leave me feeling much of anything toward you on a personal level, except, maybe, a little sorry for you.

You may speak for yourself, but you attempt to carry other men along with you. I doubt any man, other than perhaps William, would go along with you.

Firefly does not attempt tos peak for you. If she did, you would make some sense. We all know what you want from your incessant postings on them. We may not know who you are, but I doubt most of us would care to know anyhow.

People are a lot more intelligent than you give them credit for. They can see through what you post and the pity thing when you are called on something.

You are wrong in making the assertion that Firefly spouts hate more than you do. She is not projecting hate. She is projecting disgust. She is certainly not alone in that department when it comes to dealing with you and your posts.

You are so insecure that you mistake disagreement with hate. Everything has to be black and white to you. There is no room for gray in your world. Anything resembling women or feminists are open targets for you and you keep them in your sights.

You only answer what you want to answer and ignore many of the questions that are put to you that would give the reader a better understanding of your persona.

You will have to get over your self pity and loathing for women (other than as sex objects, it seems - and young age is no barrier as you have so often said) and also come to grips with what rape is and what the consequences are if you or anybody else ignores the law.

If you made 10% as much sense as Firefly has made in these threads then you would have been doing well.

Of what you think I think, yes you do. I say what I think, your superimposing what you think I think is a power game. You could not confine yourself to being reasonable and stopping at your emotional response to me, you just had to go on and attempt to define me.

You had no right. People should not let you get away with that. I am fully aware that you will dismiss my objection to your intruding upon my personal space, because your behaviour indicates that those who disagree with you are not entitled to human rights according to you.

if I lived in a cave and did not interact with other people your spiel might have worked. But since I do live in the world, and do get around, I am well aware that my arguments and line of reasoning are not unique or even all that unusual. It is currently the minority view, maybe you dont get around much a so you really believe that crap you are trying to peddle. I hope so, because that paints you in a better light than does the alternative.

Keep in mind that I from that beginning said that I come from a minority back round, both being Zen and being a former political radical. Being in the BDSM scene might qualify as well. I never pretended to be mainstream, on the other hand I know plenty of people who are a lot like me in real life so you will never make me feel like a freak. You might convince others of that, but such is not my problem, I am only responsible for me.

I actually didn't superimpose what I thought you think. I took it directly from things you have actually said in various threads.

What power game am I playing? Even in this situation, you see me, a female, going after power? What power does one gain from posting in a thread, regardless of what they say? What power do you think I am after? What is this issue you have with power?



Now I really think you are out of your mind. That statement is off the wall.

I disagree with people all the time on these boards. And, believe me, I feel they are all entitled to human rights.

If it is all the same to Firefly, how about suspending the personal attacks on me and going back to the rape thread to attempt to refute my evidence that women are abusive towards men on par with men abusing women, and talking about what to do about the feminists refusing to be honest about reality? I don't think your side can come up with the goods, but I would like to give you every opportunity.

BMW complete with a moving car

I have a wrench. I also invert jars, hit the lid squarely on the floor then open them with my left hand which is stronger than my right.

Are you even discussing the issue of rape in the rape thread?

What does domestic abuse have to do with rape? You have repeatedly pulled that thread way off topic. And then you bragged that, since there are no moderators at A2K, you can turn a thread into any topic you want to talk about. Well, you're coming up with topics that don't interest me, and when something that does interest me is discussed, I will respond.

I don't want to get into the issue of who abuses who more, men or women. I find that kind of thing meaningless. What is the point? That humans can all be abusive? I realize it fits into your "men are being abused by women" agenda, but I'm not going to engage in a discussion of which gender behaves more badly. It's pointless.

And who are these anonymous "feminists" you are always talking about. You never identify any of them. Can you even name 3 prominent current feminist thinkers or writers who are "refusing to be honest about reality"?

When the rape thread gets back on topic I might regain interest in posting there.

Firefly is pretending nothing! As for you speaking for yourself, that's fine, but look how many people are telling you that you can not speak for other men! Look how many people think this thread is a pity party!

Do you think that this might be part of the reason you see things with the specific slant that you do? And I'm not passing judgment on the slant with which you see things. I see a lot of people on this forum making decisions about the origin of another person's attitudes and beliefs and ascribing motivation to someone before they've ever even met the person. I don't do that.

But I'm asking you - do you think because you are active in bondage/dominance role-playing or sex play or whatever you guys call it - that you might approach a lot of life's issues with the thought that in most relationships between men and women (because in your case you're heterosexual) there either HAS to be or is usually a dominant and a submissive?

Because I don't think that way - but I'm not into that stuff. You know what I'm saying? Maybe that's why it just doesn't occur to me.

Here's an example of what I mean. I don't wear a wedding ring, but I work at a prison so I don't want the men there to fixate on the fact that I'm available - so I tell them I'm married. I forgot I wasn't wearing a wedding ring - but Jesus they'd picked up on it and the first question they asked is - 'Why don't you wear a wedding ring then?" when I told them I was married.
I said, and this is the truth - 'When we moved overseas - it got stolen out of my jewelry box - the packers must have stolen it.'
One of them immediately asked, 'How much was it worth?'
I said, 'I don't know - probably a couple of thousand dollars.'
The guy said, 'Miss - one of your kids probably stole it and pawned it for the money.'
And all the men agreed that that's probably what had happened - without any of them ever having met my kids - they figured they were capable of stealing from their own mother- whereas I could never even imagine one of my kids doing that, in fact the thought had never crossed my mind.
And then I thought about it and realized they think most other people are capable of something like that because that's what they themselves would do whereas I don't think of most other people doing stuff like that because I would never do that myself.

Maybe we all approach each other and situations as we are used to being approached or as we ourselves would approach others.

Very astute, Aidan.

Forgive me, but it sounds like you drop the jar on the floor until you can get the lid off....

I think there is a great deal of truth to that.

Which is why we have to develop the capacity to be "objective" and flexible in our thinking, to be able to shift perspectives and understand situations from differing points of view. Not only does that ultimately give us more information, it helps us to understand each other. Wise parents help to teach their children to do this as they are growing up. Without this capacity, we would all be rather narrow minded.



That might be true too, although I'm inclined to think that it might occur the other way around--someone who already has issues concerning power and control might be more attracted to BDSM. That would be another example of your other point, that people approach or understand situations in a manner consistent with their past experience.

Wow that was so beautiful I think I'm gonna cry....wait a minute I am one of those "new liberated women" - I better not cry.

Really it even beat the cooties in deepness.