joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 12:53 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
Finally, some progress. Yes, you are quite right that you can force people to sign a contract that says they can't make copies upon reading it. However, let's say that I sign that contract and then make a copy anyways and give it to Jane. Now, Jane makes copies for everyone she knows and they in turn do the same. The only person you have a legal right to sue is me. You can't sue Jane because she never signed a contract with you.

That's quite true. But let's concentrate on my contract with you before we start thinking about all the people down the line who make copies of copies.

Night Ripper wrote:
As for damages, let's just say you can do whatever you like, including locking me in a rape dungeon or putting me in a front of a firing squad. I don't really care to argue what damages you are entitled to if I violate a contract since that contract isn't going to get you what you want, namely, a replacement for copyright laws.

You're getting ahead of yourself. We need to take this one step at a time. I can understand why you'd want to brush off the issue of the amount of damages because you're probably aware of how damaging it is to your position. But that's what I want to focus on, so humor me.

Now, we have entered into a contract and you breached it. The nature of the breach is your unauthorized copying of my novel. According to you, if you hadn't entered into a contract with me and had simply copied my novel, I would have suffered no damages at all, since my novel is free to be copied by anyone. But we've entered into a contract. Are my damages still nothing? Or do I now get to lock you in a rape dungeon just because we have a contract?
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 12:53 pm
@Night Ripper,
Thomas wrote:
2) When artists cannot create art for money, they'll have to do other work to feed themselves. The time they spend doing this other work is lost for their production of art. These realities of life apply to genius artists as much as they apply to wannabes. In this sense, intellectual property rights can increase even the output of very good artists.

Night Ripper wrote:
Again, so what? Bach found time. Botticelli found time.

Although I know nothing about Botticelli's biography, I'm pretty familiar with Bach's. Bach's intellectual production was almost entirely paid out of tax money. He spent virtually all his work life as an employee of various morarchical courts and state-established churches, who in turn raised their money through compulsury contributions from their citizenry.

As a utilitarian, I'd be quite happy with a 21st-century version of such an arrangement. Have government-financed universities develop pharmaceuticals and release their formulas for everybody in the world to copy. Have the National Endowment of the Arts---and its equivalents on the state and municipal levels---give tenured positions to outstanding artists, and make their output free for everyone else to copy.

To me as a utilitarian, the case for doing this is just another facet of the plain-vanilla, economics-101 case for the government providing public resources in general. But since you're a natural-rights man, and a much more hardcore libertarian than I am, I don't see how you could approve of reviving this option. Indeed, I don't see how you could approve of the monarchs and clerics who financed Bach this way. If you want a society that runs on private property and freedom of contract alone, you'll need some level of intellectual property rights to make it work. Maybe a lower level than today's America has, but at least some.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 12:59 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Sure they do! Because we know that the vast majority of people will not, in fact, produce a car on their own. The company doesn't make money off of the design but the production of the car.

I'm pretty sure that a large part of the cost of a car is paying for the design. (This includes but is not limited to: aesthetics, fuel efficiency, safety features, user interface, etc.)
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:00 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Sure they do! Because we know that the vast majority of people will not, in fact, produce a car on their own. The company doesn't make money off of the design but the production of the car.

I'm pretty sure that a large part of the cost of a car is paying for the design. (This includes but is not limited to: aesthetics, fuel efficiency, safety features, user interface, etc.)


Sure, but they don't realize any revenue from those design features; they realize revenue from producing those features on a product that people can buy. And they will still be able to do so even if patents don't exist.

What patents really do is protect inefficiency in the design and production process. If someone can make your design cheaper and better than you, why shouldn't they be able to do so? It benefits everyone - other than a small set of rich folks, that is.

Cycloptichorn
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:02 pm
@Night Ripper,
Quote:
No, of course not. The rediculous part of your claim is the part about requiring the composer's consent to make a copy of sheet music. Perhaps you meant the original score? In that case, yes it did require at least 1 person to have consent to copy it, otherwise it would be theft of the paper it was written on. However, once one person had a copy, he was free to give it to whomever he liked or to make as many duplicates as he liked.

I am curious how Vivaldi's Spring would sound if you only had the sheet music for french horns.

Of course that ignores that composers often made money by selling sheet music.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Sure, but they don't realize any revenue from those design features; they realize revenue from producing those features on a product that people can buy. And they will still be able to do so even if patents don't exist.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. Engineer has provided a fine counter example (the forceps).

If everyone is free to rip off any innovation, then there is much less incentive to provide the innovation, and much more incentive to simply wait for someone else to do it and then rip off the idea. Then the big players win every time, because they have the ability to capitalize on the idea much faster than the small innovator.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:11 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Sure, but they don't realize any revenue from those design features; they realize revenue from producing those features on a product that people can buy. And they will still be able to do so even if patents don't exist.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. Engineer has provided a fine counter example (the forceps).

If everyone is free to rip off any innovation, then there is much less incentive to provide the innovation, and much more incentive to simply wait for someone else to do it and then rip off the idea. Then the big players win every time, because they have the ability to capitalize on the idea much faster than the small innovator.


I don't believe this is logically valid, but instead simply your supposition of what would happen. The Forceps example was one where a company intentionally kept the matter a secret- something almost impossible to do in modern society. And even more so, do I care? As an end user, I don't care whether X or Y company is making my product, I just want the product.

Not only that, but there is a gigantic question of Quality inherent in decisions of where to buy the product from. For example, the technology behind modern laptops is essentially the same across a huge variety of vendors; however, people make decisions all the time based on perceived quality issues. Removing patents shifts the buying decision from one of availability to one of quality.

Cycloptichorn
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:15 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
For example, the technology behind modern laptops is essentially the same across a huge variety of vendors; however, people make decisions all the time based on perceived quality issues. Removing patents shifts the buying decision from one of availability to one of quality.

And without the patent system, we'd be faced with a bewildering variety of proprietary designs. Every company trying to protect its secrets, and nobody benefiting from the "compound interest" of incremental improvements.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:17 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
For example, the technology behind modern laptops is essentially the same across a huge variety of vendors; however, people make decisions all the time based on perceived quality issues. Removing patents shifts the buying decision from one of availability to one of quality.

And without the patent system, we'd be faced with a bewildering variety of proprietary designs. Every company trying to protect its secrets, and nobody benefiting from the "compound interest" of incremental improvements.


So you say, but once again, I don't think this is an accurate assertion. I would point to the existence of open-source software and hardware as a great counter-example...

Cycloptichorn
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Look at the world of performance art. Magicians, for example.

If a magician has a great trick, he keeps it secret. Why? Because he can't patent or copyright it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:26 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Look at the world of performance art. Magicians, for example.

If a magician has a great trick, he keeps it secret. Why? Because he can't patent or copyright it.


Bad example - 'Secrets of the Masked Magician' is a show which has been on TV for years now, and they regularly reveal exactly how many of the most popular and exciting tricks have been done over the years. Nevertheless, people still go to see Magicians perform, even thought the mechanisms behind most of their tricks are easily available and well-understood.

The real key to a magician making money isn't the secrets behind the trick - it's the performance or like I said earlier, Quality issues.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:28 pm
I believe that to think about the issue coherently, it helps to distinguish between two time intervals: before the intellectual value is created and after it's created. Before intellectual value is created, intellectual property rights to it provide an incentive to create it, and to publish it rather than making it a trade secret---both of which are good things. After the value is created, intellectual property rights to it artificially restrict the number of beneficiaries, which is a bad thing. The question, then, is to find the right tradeoff. All-or-nothing positions on either side will inevitably miss the point.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:32 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

I believe that to think about the issue coherently, it helps to distinguish between two time intervals: before the intellectual value is created and after it's created. Before intellectual value is created, intellectual property rights to it provide an incentive to create it, and to publish it rather than making it a trade secret---both of which are good things. After the value is created, intellectual property rights to it artificially restrict the number of beneficiaries, which is a bad thing. The question, then, is to find the right tradeoff. All-or-nothing positions on either side will inevitably miss the point.


Fair enough; but it's clear that our current system has been heavily perverted by the 'after' position. A simple solution would be to make ALL patents expire after 20 years (the number of years are negotiable), with no renewals allowed for cosmetic or minor changes in form, no matter what.

Cycloptichorn
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:35 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:

Why should copyright infringement be illegal?


because of the time , energy and money to produce the first copy

by both the producer and the creater of any copy
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:38 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I have no problem with that. I also think the Digital Millenium Copyright act was a travesty for retroactively extending Walt Disney's copyrights on Mickey Mouse for another 20 years. Walt Disney isn't going to create any more movies because of it.

But that wasn't Night Ripper's initial question. His initial question was why there should be any copyrights at all---and by extentsion, why there should be patents, or any intellectual property. The answer to this question is, "because intellectual property rights create an incentive to produce intellectual value."
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:40 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
After the value is created, intellectual property rights to it artificially restrict the number of beneficiaries, which is a bad thing.

The same could be said for any type of property. My ownership of my car, for example, artificially restricts everyone else from driving off in it. Are you saying, then, that all property laws are bad?
north
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:43 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

I have no problem with that. I also think the Digital Millenium Copyright act was a travesty for retroactively extending Walt Disney's copyrights on Mickey Mouse for another 20 years. Walt Disney isn't going to create any more movies because of it.


Quote:
But that wasn't Night Ripper's initial question. His initial question was why there should be any copyrights at all---and by extentsion, why there should be patents, or any intellectual property.


Quote:
The answer to this question is, "because intellectual property rights create an incentive to produce intellectual value."


what does this mean , really ?

Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 02:04 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
Thomas wrote:
After the value is created, intellectual property rights to it artificially restrict the number of beneficiaries, which is a bad thing.
The same could be said for any type of property. My ownership of my car, for example, artificially restricts everyone else from driving off in it.

No it doesn't. It's natural restriction on your car that you and I can't drive it to two different places at the same time. Your capability to drive it and my capability to drive it inherently restrict each other. Hence, property rights in cars don't create any restrictions on their usage. They just allocate those restrictions, given that they're there.

Not so with intellectual property like Microsoft's Windows 7. Once produced, you can install it on your computer and do your thing; I can install it on my computer and do my thing; neither of us imposes any restriction on the other. In the case of Windows 7, then, intellectual property law actually causes usage restrictions rather than just allocating them.

joefromchicago wrote:
Are you saying, then, that all property laws are bad?

No---only some property laws are bad.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 02:06 pm
@north,
north wrote:
what does this mean , really ?

That's a very broad question. Can you be more specific about what you don't understand?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 02:10 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
No it doesn't. It's natural restriction on your car that you and I can't drive it to two different places at the same time. Your capability to drive it and my capability to drive it inherently restrict each other. Property rights in cars merely decide whose capability prevails. They don't create the restrictions that make this decision necessary.

But my property rights prevent you from using my car even if I don't intend to use it myself.

Thomas wrote:
Not so with intellectual property like Microsoft's Windows 7. Once produced, you can install it on your computer and do your thing; I can install it on my computer and do my thing; neither of us imposes any restriction on the other. In the case of Windows 7, then, intellectual property law actually causes usage restrictions rather than just allocating them.

Well, any monopoly right creates an artificial restriction on usage of the monopolized product, and copyrights and patents are limited monopolies. But then any property right could, with justice, be called a limited monopoly, so I'm not sure that's a distinction with a difference.
 

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