parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 09:06 pm
@Night Ripper,
Quote:

If you DO NOT sign a contract then you ARE NOT legally bound to the terms of a contract.

Ah.. but if the USE of the software requires an agreement to the contract then you are legally bound when you use that software, are you not? It doesn't matter whether you bought it or just copied it.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 09:12 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Ah.. but if the USE of the software requires an agreement to the contract then you are legally bound when you use that software, are you not?


Yes. If you click "I accept" on an EULA then you are bound by those terms since you agreed to them. Of course, you could always just strip that part off and use the software anyways without agreeing to anything.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 09:25 pm
@Night Ripper,
You could, but then you aren't using a copy, are you?
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 10:07 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
You could, but then you aren't using a copy, are you?


It's possible to use any software by circumventing the requirement of clicking "I accept". So, yes I could be using a copy without agreeing to the EULA.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 08:05 pm
I guess I win by default?
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 07:40 pm
@Night Ripper,
Is that what you call it when you put everybody who disagrees with you on ignore?
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 02:48 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Is that what you call it when you put everybody who disagrees with you on ignore?


The only two people making arguments are you and parados. You've both failed to respond to my latest posts.

Let me ask you again in case you missed it. Why do you think people deserve control over the fruits of their labor? Do you think if you harvest my crops that they belong to you? Do you think that if you steal metal from me and make a sword that the sword belongs to you?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 05:40 am
@Night Ripper,
Why do you think if you steal the work product of someone else it belongs to you?
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 07:55 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
Why do you think if you steal the work product of someone else it belongs to you?


What am I stealing? Electrons? I'm pretty sure I paid for those.

It's quite obvious that copying and stealing are not the same.
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 08:16 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
The only two people making arguments are you and parados. You've both failed to respond to my latest posts.

Not so.

http://able2know.org/topic/158307-18#post-4291825
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 08:41 am
@Night Ripper,
What are you paying for when you buy a book? If folks didn't find any value in the order of the words, then Amazon could just spin a roulette wheel to decide what book to send people to fulfill the orders.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 08:45 am
Quote:
It's quite obvious that copying and stealing are not the same.

Copying is stealing if you copy something of value without equitable recompense to it's source. If anything is obvious, it is that whatever you are copying has value or you wouldn't be copying it.

There is a form of Schizophrenia wherein the patients obsessively collect items for which they claim to have no interest, but I don't think you are a victim of that condition.

Thus, unless you have permission to copy it without paying for it from it's source, you are stealing, at the very least, the value you hold for it, to say nothing about the value the source of the item claims for it.
==
Joe(Do not remove this Tag under Plenty of Law)Nation
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 09:48 am
Parados, DrewDad, and both Joes: I admire you for continuing to bother. Evidently you are much more patient men than I am.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 10:18 am
@Thomas,
This is a case where his opinion has framed his thinking, rather than the other way around.

I suspect that it's a case of cognitive dissonance: he illegally copies music, but he's not a bad person so it must not be wrong to illegally copy music.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 10:27 am
@Thomas,
Reality will sink in.
Ripper is already at the stage of paranoia about going to jail over his activities as a certain J--Nat--n was a few years back about his perfectly peaceful, non-invasive, totally harmless um, farming hobby.
(What the statute of limitations again?)
He knows what he's doing is wrong, I knew what I was doing was wrong. He knows the law isn't going to change, I knew the law wasn't going to change, not withstanding the recent medical use facilities now able to sell the farm 'produce'.
It's about risk management, though he has more fear of being raped than I ever did. I would sure hate to go to jail for downloading music I thought had no value.
"What'd you steal?"
"Nothing."
"Me too."
That's what every thief says.
==
Parts of this discussion (the lack of severe cyber defenses around music files to prevent hacking) remind of the guy arrested in San Angelo, Texas for theft of a toolbox a few years back.
Part of his defense was, I kid you not, that the owner left his garage door wide open and therefore was partially complicit in the taking of said toolbox.

Quote "If he felt those tools were so valuable, then why would he be so lackadaisical about caring for them?"
The judge asked the defendant if he felt that he had been in some way led to commit the crime?

"Oh, yes, Your Honor" says he, "The Good Book says 'Lead us not into temptation' and him leaving that door open was sure to lead someone astray. I just happened to be the one who came by."

"Yes" says the Judge "I also see that that garage happened to be the fourth one you were tempted by that Saturday. Two-to-five years including time already served, restitution in the amount of $750.00 and costs of the courts. We're adjourned."

Joe(He was shocked, shocked I tell you.)Nation
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 01:02 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Copying is stealing if you copy something of value without equitable recompense to it's source.


That's what you're here to argue. I'm arguing the opposite. Let's not beg the question.

Why is it stealing?

The fact I value X and then copy X doesn't mean it's stealing. Otherwise it would be stealing to copy Greek epics. I obviously value those.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 07:14 pm
@Night Ripper,
Quote:
It's quite obvious that copying and stealing are not the same.

Actually they are the same if you are not legally allowed to copy something.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 09:25 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
It's quite obvious that copying and stealing are not the same.

Actually they are the same if you are not legally allowed to copy something.


Really? Then why don't people get arrested for theft of property when they download copyrighted content without authorization? Instead, why do they get sued for copyright infringement? Do you not understand the difference between criminal and civil laws?

Anyways, it's not enough to simply declare that copying is stealing when it's not clear why that is other than because you say so. Where's your argument?
parados
 
  0  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2010 07:06 am
@Night Ripper,
I understand the difference quite well. Why do you think OJ lost in civil court over the death of his former wife? Victims of crimes can sue in civil court even if there is no conviction in criminal court.


You on the other hand seem to have a problem with telling the difference.

Night Ripper wrote:
Yet, you think we should be locking people up in rape dungeons just so you can watch "Transformers 3"?


Night Ripper wrote:
Remember that, all laws ultimately escalate to imprisonment or death, without exception, from littering to rape.

So, is it a crime or not Night Ripper? You seem confused about it now.
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2010 08:58 am
@Night Ripper,
This is fun, some people may not find it so, but I do.
Quote:
Copying is stealing if you copy something of value without equitable recompense to it's source.

Revised to:
Copying is stealing if you copy something of value without permission and equitable recompense to it's copyright holder.

No one holds the copyright to Greek epics now, however you will find that there are hundreds of books and articles about the Greek epics which are copyrighted more or less with a notice as :
Oedipus Rex | Copyright
These eNotes are copyrighted by eNotes.com, Inc.. No part of this content may be reproduced in any form without the permission of eNotes.©2005 - 2009 Enotes.com Inc. All Rights Reserved
No part of this work covered by the copyright hereon may be reproduced or used in any form or by any means—graphic, electronic, or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, taping, Web distribution or information storage retrieval systems—without the written permission of Enotes.com.


What modern nations have agreed to is a set of rights of ownership for created artworks -writings, songs, poems, dances, movies, plays, musicals, commentaries- which provide protection and control of those works for their creators. Let's not be coy. Artists and writers have demanded that they have protection and control of their own work and they have been given same by the governments under which they (and you) live.

You can argue that the downloading of a song does no harm, but it does. It violates the artist's control of his work. Even if an artist were to say, as many do today, that anyone can copy his song as many times as they like without any payment, that still leaves that artist in control of his own work. He can say "It's free." You cannot. You don't have the right.

You can argue all you like that such is not fair or just, that more art would be created in an open and costless market or that authentic artists/writers deep in their hearts aren't really creating anything they want anything for, but I have to tell you, since the time of Shakespeare (he had to spend a lot of time chasing down unauthorized versions of his plays during his lifetime. Eh. What? He could have spent that time writing!) the natural right of an artist to control the product of work has been recognized and defended.
==
Funny story - sort of. While in the USAF language school in the late sixties, I used to play music at coffeehouses both on and off base. There were a bunch of us singer/songwriters doing that in Monterey, CA. People played covers and they played their own original songs. Nobody got paid, they got (or didn't get) applause.
I wrote a song called "Hello there, Strange Hair". People really liked it. It was a dreamy little tune about finding love again after loss. Always a hit with everybody. I probably played that tune in six or seven places around Monterey before getting shipped to San Angelo, Texas.
Fast Forward: I get to Texas, hear about a coffeehouse called "The Whole in the Wall" and mosey on down. Talk to Uncle Gordie the owner about doing a gig.
"We don't pay, but you get free coffee." Very cool.
I get up on the stool to do three or four songs and decide to play: "Hello there, Strange Hair" and I'm about halfway through the second verse when I notice an odd vibe in the room.
I stop.
"What?" I say.
Someone in the crowd says "You're doing Randy's song."
"Who's Randy?" I ask and get told the story of this guy who had a bunch of original songs, who had arrived at the Whole about two months before.
"I bet he shipped in from Monterey." I said.
The only thing that saved my reputation was we found out that Randy had also stolen tunes from two other guys, Jon Kantor and Bob Eisenhart, and was passing them off as his own. (I thought Bob was going to smack him with his banjo.) It all turned out good, Randy fessed up to folks and we went on with our lives.

Wait a minute, did I say Randy had stolen those songs? He didn't get paid for playing them, I didn't get paid for playing them. But they were still mine, and Jon's and Bob's.

Here's the thing, all of us played each other's songs, I can probably still do a couple of verses of Jon's "Drifter", but we each had each other's permission (and in some cases, urging) to play the music.

That's the difference. I can't explain it much better, there is something inherent about possessing and controlling what you have made, that allows you to share it or not share it, to sell it or not sell it, to allow anyone for no price to use, copy, reference or even change it OR not to allow anyone for any price to do anything with it.

Thanks for listening.
Joe(hello there, strange hair and eyes like smoke of autumn mornings)Nation
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6HMyVYtcgxI/Sc97ughOWBI/AAAAAAAACr4/zzlpfEcyooU/s128/Jonathan%20Thee%20Coffe%20House.jpg
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/03/2024 at 03:45:16